Subcultures (Trigger Warning)

[Emerald]

18 hours ago, Serotoninluv said:

@Emerald Do you think a higher societal consciousness is arising that is aware of the underlying trauma and pain fueling unhealthy subcultures? If so, that could help recontextualuze the problem and allow some healing.

In some ways yes. But there is a long way to go.

And you'd have to take these endeavors lightly because there is a huge risk of lending credibility to extremist groups by focusing on their tribulations before the tribulations of the groups that they persecute. These groups thrive off of others taking a sympathetic and apologist eye to their lives. It allows them to court new members and get more room in the accepted discourse.

So, it's similar to focusing on the pain endured by a Nazi soldier and humanizing them so that they seem relatable and "like us." And a lot of people will go,  "Aww. That's not an evil person. He's just like my cousin. So, maybe Nazis aren't that bad... we should tolerate them." And that happening when Jews are hiding in basements just to survive. So, it's a tricky balance between helping people who are suffering and keeping their toxic ideologies from being normalized.

So, right now on the left in the political sphere, there is a lot of resistance to helping those in bigoted groups because they see them as having waived their rights to decency and concern. So, there is still a nave "punish-the-evil-doer" mentality. But on the flip side, a lot of people on the left can see how taking a nuanced and sympathetic eye to bigoted people can shift the public discourse more in the fascist direction which will cause pain to a lot more people.

So, there is a need to address these issues more indirectly, through broad-scale realizations relative to these issues that will be indoctrinated and taught as the normal thing to the coming generations as opposed to trying to help the current generations that are already afflicted. Once the root causes of these problems are addressed, we will know how to protect children from the psychological issues that make a hate-group seem attractive. And there will be no pain for these particular communities to spring forth from.

But a little bit of that is already happening. I know that with the talks about toxic masculinity, there is a lot of focus toward the pressure put on men to repress their emotions. And there is also focus toward realizing that anti-feminine thinking goes into this idea of the emotions being a sign of weakness and inferiority... and that being the reason why there are so many men following along with patterns of toxic masculinity as opposed to more positive forms of masculinity.

So, we're taking baby steps.

 

[Forestluv]

32 minutes ago, CreamCat said:

@Serotoninluv In restrospect, I think Emerald is trying to convince incel and MGTOW out of their comfort zone. By comfort zone, I mean their echo chambers. Convincing people doesn't work because arguments only strengthen one's own position. But, you can inspire them out of their comfort zone. I also think she's not doing a good job of inspiring me into her position by telling me my head is stuck in sand, which doesn't seem to come from a position of compassion.

Inspire them with your own life. Incels might be inspired by self-help techniques. Since incels think they are unfuckable and blame their unfuckability on women, they might be inspired by physical training and positive mindset and responsibility.

For example, if a muscular man becomes a friend with an incel and inspires him to become muscular too, then that incel might become another alpha male who feels confident.

Also, I know I'm not in a good position to inspire others. So, I just work on myself and recommend that people watch self-help videos. I should utilize division of labor and let self-help gurus take care of self-help and raising consciousness.

Lastly, I trust Spiral Dynamics to do its work. I just need to focus on myself and give people quick tips here and there.

I can see your perspective and I respect your right to have that perspective.

[CreamCat]

Just now, Serotoninluv said:

I can see your perspective and I respect your right to have that perspective.

Your compassion is inspiring me.

[Forestluv]

@Emerald Thank you, this mirrors my development quite well. When I was Green-centered, the human connection and empathy was with those that are marginalized and abused. For example, what I perceived to be toxic masculinity and racism really bothered me, since I was empathizing with who I perceived to be the victims. Yet, heading into high Green and Yellow, I began seeing that both "perpetrator" and "victim" both suffered trauma and were acting out underlying insecurity, fear, trauma and suffering. Then, my sphere of empathy expanded to include more and more people.

Yet as you mentioned, some people respond well to compassion and empathy while others will try to take advantage of it in manipulative and selfish ways. As a simple example, empaths are notoriously known for attracting narcissists that suck out all their empathetic energy.

[Emerald]

35 minutes ago, CreamCat said:

You don't trust Spiral Dynamics? Humanity raised itself from Red to Orange/Green and toward Yellow without me or you. Trust in the universal process.

I work on my shadows. I worked on my spitefulness, and it was good. I try not to fiddle with others because arguing with others only strengthens their ego backlash. Good luck with trying to talk incels and MGTOW out of their comfort zone.

But, I can inspire others with my life if I live my life well. Don't convince. Inspire.

Those processes in Spiral Dynamics don't do anything without human participation. It is the action of the individual that translates to the collective. And there is a severe shortage of those who are actually looking at this issue in a more systemic way. So, it may continue doing what it does without us. But it won't without people who are like us... so it might as well be us... or at least me if you don't want to.

If no one does the work, then no one will do the work. It's a very obvious statement... but it's true.

Plus, since I see this as being a matter of survival for the human race to transition from Orange to Green because of the pressing environmental issues stemming from anti-feminine sentiments, I want to help as many people transition as possible.

But I don't go around spitting talking points at Incel or MGTOW guys or at Alt-righters. That's not effective. What is effective, however, is to show them a different interpretation of what they already believe that actually does have some roots in reality. Often times, these distorted ideologies will come about because of a misinterpretation of the context of the certain fact that is indeed a fact. So, they will see the dots there, but connect them wrong and in a way that is contracted and enhances victim's mentality and causes them to lash out at others.

So, if I'm to approach a person like this, I will simply show them a more accurate way to connect the dots. And they'll usually be more open because I will concede to them when they say something correct and show them how it weaves into my framework of thinking relative to these topics.

But I don't focus on these types of people often. I target centrists especially because they usually don't really stand for anything other than neutrality and centrism and are easy to sway as long as I avoid buzzwords that make them feel like they're undermining their moral identification as a centrist. These people are unfortunately very easy to manipulate and weaponize, if they aren't made aware of it. 

I also focus on those who are already somewhat aware, and I give them broader  and more holistic perspectives on the issues that they're dealing with to define them in a broader and more accurate context with regard to larger macrocosmic cycles such as the interplay between Yin and Yang and Spiral Dynamics.

But there be no need to convince someone of what is true if it's true. Just tell them, and they will notice it if they're open to noticing it. And if not, then move on. Others will come along and see that the perspective I'm giving is more in alignment with reality in a way that doesn't invalidate their actual truthful observations. And people who don't have a specific ideological aversion to truth and have no ideology to protect, will be able to notice which model of reality is more accurate... just like a person can tell when a painting or drawing is a more realistic depiction of reality than another painting or drawing. 

But seeing how the dots that they've already gotten can be re-contextualized in a broader and more accurate framework, just by changing the connections between the dots and their perspective, is key to facilitating the evolution between stages... and this is true whether a person is Blue, Red, Orange, or Green. So, it's important to take a holistic and integrative approach, while also mitigating the potential for danger in taking a nuanced exploration of these topics.

[CreamCat]

37 minutes ago, Emerald said:

Plus, since I see this as being a matter of survival for the human race to transition from Orange to Green because of the pressing environmental issues stemming from anti-feminine sentiments, I want to help as many people transition as possible.

You think trees are destroyed because of anti-feminine sentiments? Anyway, your response is too long and densely packed to read thoroughly.

The general impression I got from your comment is that you want to convince them of truths. As Leo said, people are not going to differentiate between paradigm and truth.

Also, I'm skeptical about convincing. You might be able to pick the low-hanging fruits by convincing people who hold positions similar to yours. I would inspire others with my life or my body and make people come to me for advice instead of going to them. Consider Elon Musk. Lots of young men are eager to follow his life advices because his life is inspiring. Tony Robbins is a good example of inspiration, too.

Edited January 23, 2019 by CreamCat

[zambize]

1 hour ago, CreamCat said:

I also think she's not doing a good job of inspiring me into her position by telling me my head is stuck in sand, which doesn't seem to come from a position of compassion.

To be fair reading through these I couldnt honestly tell if you had even read what she said fully or just skimmed/looked for one hole to poke somewhere.  It seemed like youd pick one small argument and miss the collective meaning, but that's just my perspective reading through 

[Emerald]

1 hour ago, CreamCat said:

You think trees are destroyed because of anti-feminine sentiments? Anyway, your response is too long and densely packed to read thoroughly.

The general impression I got from your comment is that you want to convince them of truths. As Leo said, people are not going to differentiate between paradigm and truth.

Also, I'm skeptical about convincing. You might be able to pick the low-hanging fruits by convincing people who hold positions similar to yours. I would inspire others with my life or my body and make people come to me for advice instead of going to them. Consider Elon Musk. Lots of young men are eager to follow his life advices because his life is inspiring. Tony Robbins is a good example of inspiration, too.

What are you doing to inspire others? It seems like you keep coming back to this point, but what are you actually doing?

And more importantly, do you have anything that you have conviction about to inspire people toward? 

It seems like all of our interactions are me telling you all about what I'm doing for the purpose of clarity, and then you cherry picking a few things and saying, "Nah! That won't work. You should stop and do something else."

So, it's too much advice giving, without understanding what I'm doing. And that's why I'm telling you.

But on the topic of inspiring people with my life... I myself, have a reasonable sized audience completely separate from this forum. I have a consciousness-work related YouTube channel with over 20k subscribers and over a million views on it that is growing at a rate of about 50 subs per day. And people do come to me for advice regularly and have shown me that they appreciate my perspective. And I get a lot of people on the left and the right on my channel with about 2/3s of the audience being male according to YouTube analytics.

And I actually find that a lot of people are quite receptive to what I have to say because of my holistic approach to these issues and the way I convey the information. People on the world stage are mostly just spitting random talking points back and forth at one another, so it can be refreshing for people to see a more nuanced perspective on what's going on. It creates quite a bit of relief for a lot of people, and that's why I share. It helps people get a bigger picture view of what's going on so that people see the general direction. And in seeing the ordering principle in these phenomenon, it makes them realize that it isn't just pure chaos and mean-spiritedness.

And being able to understand these issues at a deeper level brings solace in a time of great confusion.

So, I understand that a lot of people will still remain in their paradigm. But even to expose them to mine is to plant a seed. And even if this may seem vain, it's a seed that few people have the ability to plant in the way that I do.

Also, not every conversation that I hold on this topic is not for the purpose of talking directly to the person I'm talking to. For example, I don't think you're open enough to even consider what I have to say as every response you've made is just attempts at debunking my perspective and not even really considering (or perhaps even understanding) what I have to say. So, I don't see you as someone who's actually receptive.

But the people who read our conversation will see that I kind of pwned you, and they will be more receptive to what I have to say in contrast. 

Also, to understand how the destruction of nature and anti-feminine sentiments are related, you have to understand what the feminine is on the esoteric level. There is a reason why Mother Nature is called Mother. There is also a reason why the word "matter" derives from the word mother across many languages. Once you understand the interplay between Yin and Yang and what esoteric masculine and esoteric feminine entail, it becomes really clear what's transpiring. 

[Emerald]

2 hours ago, Serotoninluv said:

@Emerald Thank you, this mirrors my development quite well. When I was Green-centered, the human connection and empathy was with those that are marginalized and abused. For example, what I perceived to be toxic masculinity and racism really bothered me, since I was empathizing with who I perceived to be the victims. Yet, heading into high Green and Yellow, I began seeing that both "perpetrator" and "victim" both suffered trauma and were acting out underlying insecurity, fear, trauma and suffering. Then, my sphere of empathy expanded to include more and more people.

Yet as you mentioned, some people respond well to compassion and empathy while others will try to take advantage of it in manipulative and selfish ways. As a simple example, empaths are notoriously known for attracting narcissists that suck out all their empathetic energy.

It can be difficult to figure out what is the correct response. So, I was always very apologetic toward really negative behaviors as a teenager because I saw complete and radical tolerance as a virtue. So, I would always be the first one to try to understand and not judge people who are "bad" people. 

But unfortunately, even though there is something wise about this, I ended up behaving in such a way that I was simply ignoring issues and not taking a stand to make people truly more comfortable. I just wanted everything to be allowed and thought that freedom and radical tolerance would solved all the problems.

So, now I try to hold room for a certain paradox. And that paradox is that you have to stand up for values that are good for humanity, and stand up against values that are bad for humanity. So, in this way, we can curate a healthier society. And we can't be tolerant or apologetic toward unhealthy and discordant views because they are like kerosene, and will go up in flames once a single match gets lit.

But also, on the flipside of that paradox, it's important to understand that even most Nazis were "good" people who meant well. So, the scary part about the most horrible things are that they're carried out by good people who were convinced that their victims were rightfully deserving of what came to them because of all the propaganda and the insecurities and fears that made them susceptible to that manipulation. So, it's important to look at the psychological factors and why the propaganda works so well on people. And even have their best interests at heart, without giving them a seal of legitimacy.

[RichardY]

Yin the feminine principle is also death. I remember from reading the Tao Te Ching that the military general dresses in Black, where as his lieutenant dresses in white representing the masculine principle. There is something akin to that in "SHE a history of adventure". (was commented on by C.G Jung) the movie is ok anyway.

I see a red door and I want it painted black.....

[CreamCat]

2 hours ago, Emerald said:

I don't think you're open enough to even consider what I have to say as every response you've made is just attempts at debunking my perspective and not even really considering (or perhaps even understanding) what I have to say. So, I don't see you as someone who's actually receptive.

Probably because I was not motivated to learn and understand your framework which is quite complex. Understanding your comments requires non-trivial amounts of background knowledge. Yin, yang, feminine, divine feminine, etc, etc, ...

That's a lot of pre-conceived notions. As you said, you are talking about esoteric concepts that your youtube channel subscribers might understand.

My framework is simple, and I want it to stay simple.

Let's say your framework is not particularly suitable for my life and vice versa.

Edited January 23, 2019 by CreamCat

[Emerald]

2 hours ago, RichardY said:

Yin the feminine principle is also death. I remember from reading the Tao Te Ching that the military general dresses in Black, where as his lieutenant dresses in white representing the masculine principle. There is something akin to that in "SHE a history of adventure". (was commented on by C.G Jung) the movie is ok anyway.

I see a red door and I want it painted black.....

Death does correspond to the feminine principle as does birth. It is the feminine that sews the seeds, nurtures the sprout, and reaps the harvest. This is personified in the triple goddess archetype of maiden, mother, and crone. And the crone that reaps the harvest is the personification of death. The feminine is also representative of nature and all the cycles within nature, which includes death. 

But don't let that scare you away from the feminine principle. It is dark and gritty but is also beautiful and regenerative. And it is also what keeps us grounded and embodied in our humanity... something that's been out of fashion for quite a few many millennia. 

[Emerald]

52 minutes ago, CreamCat said:

Probably because I was not motivated to learn and understand your framework which is quite complex. Understanding your comments requires non-trivial amounts of background knowledge. Yin, yang, feminine, divine feminine, etc, etc, ...

That's a lot of pre-conceived notions. As you said, you are talking about esoteric concepts that your youtube channel subscribers might understand.

My framework is simple, and I want it to stay simple.

Let's say your framework is not particularly suitable for my life and vice versa.

I understand if you're not into it. Like I said before, I don't really need you to be as my intention isn't always just to convince the person I'm talking to about something but to convey truths about a topic that others may not have considered. I'm just trying to explain to you since you seem to always come back at what I say with some kind of debate or attempt to debunk something. So, if you weren't so adamant about convincing me of your viewpoints and telling me how mine are flawed or approached in the wrong way, then I wouldn't be trying so hard to explain mine to you. 

But since you were giving me advice on what I should do, then I asked what is it that you're doing, since you seem to be the expert on how to impact people the right way.

Which I'll ask again, what is it that you're doing to follow your life's purpose and inspire others?

And do you actually have a vision to inspire people toward?

Or is life purpose just a rhetorical device you were using in that particular conversation to both ignore the issues at hand and create a justification around doing so that makes you feel wiser?

 

[CreamCat]

1 hour ago, Emerald said:

I'm just trying to explain to you since you seem to always come back at what I say with some kind of debate or attempt to debunk something. So, if you weren't so adamant about convincing me of your viewpoints and telling me how mine are flawed or approached in the wrong way, then I wouldn't be trying so hard to explain mine to you.

I was mostly reacting randomly to your points, based on what I know. As you said, I was giving random talking points. I was fooling around without a direction on this forum. Personally, I thought you might be better off without a lot of conceptualization, but that's just my opinion. To me, MGTOW, incel, SJW, etc, ... are just people who keep complaining in their comfort zones(i.e. their echo chambers). And, I don't worry that they will turn into something as threatening as KKK or nazi. I'm done fighting against ideologies.

Don't take my criticisms too seriously.

In retrospect, I realize that results will speak for themselves. Direct experience speaks truths. If whatever you're doing gets results that you want, keep doing it. Ignore my theories if your direct experience contradicts my theories.

Edited January 23, 2019 by CreamCat

[Wyze]

10 hours ago, Emerald said:

In some ways yes. But there is a long way to go.

And you'd have to take these endeavors lightly because there is a huge risk of lending credibility to extremist groups by focusing on their tribulations before the tribulations of the groups that they persecute. These groups thrive off of others taking a sympathetic and apologist eye to their lives. It allows them to court new members and get more room in the accepted discourse.

So, it's similar to focusing on the pain endured by a Nazi soldier and humanizing them so that they seem relatable and "like us." And a lot of people will go,  "Aww. That's not an evil person. He's just like my cousin. So, maybe Nazis aren't that bad... we should tolerate them." And that happening when Jews are hiding in basements just to survive. So, it's a tricky balance between helping people who are suffering and keeping their toxic ideologies from being normalized.

So, right now on the left in the political sphere, there is a lot of resistance to helping those in bigoted groups because they see them as having waived their rights to decency and concern. So, there is still a nave "punish-the-evil-doer" mentality. But on the flip side, a lot of people on the left can see how taking a nuanced and sympathetic eye to bigoted people can shift the public discourse more in the fascist direction which will cause pain to a lot more people.

So, there is a need to address these issues more indirectly, through broad-scale realizations relative to these issues that will be indoctrinated and taught as the normal thing to the coming generations as opposed to trying to help the current generations that are already afflicted. Once the root causes of these problems are addressed, we will know how to protect children from the psychological issues that make a hate-group seem attractive. And there will be no pain for these particular communities to spring forth from.

But a little bit of that is already happening. I know that with the talks about toxic masculinity, there is a lot of focus toward the pressure put on men to repress their emotions. And there is also focus toward realizing that anti-feminine thinking goes into this idea of the emotions being a sign of weakness and inferiority... and that being the reason why there are so many men following along with patterns of toxic masculinity as opposed to more positive forms of masculinity.

So, we're taking baby steps.

 

I think my biggest concern is the potential influence of extreme groups and the average person falling into what you've mentioned as "good people" doing bad deeds, and not even realizing it. I've noticed that the bad deeds of the last 100 years have significant impacts on their children and grandchildren (war-traumas). Is this a sign of the collective shadow?

[Wyze]

10 hours ago, Serotoninluv said:

Yet as you mentioned, some people respond well to compassion and empathy while others will try to take advantage of it in manipulative and selfish ways. As a simple example, empaths are notoriously known for attracting narcissists that suck out all their empathetic energy.

I've also noticed this too. This is one of the main reason why I think over staying in Green (in today's society) would lead a person into a very nihilistic pov and possibly become a red shadow themselves; if they don't move up the spiral for whatever reason.

Edited January 23, 2019 by Wyze

[Consept]

I think theres a couple reasons why these groups are catching fire recently - one is that people do have a lot of pain and are unhappy, (quick google search shows 16 million in the US), and feeling like this you have 2 options you can either take responsibility, work on yourself, improve your life etc or you can blame others or external factors. The first one could take years and can mean facing up to all your pain, the other is easy,  you can make a youtube video or post on reddit and can be done in minutes, only issue is that you have to keep on doing it to feed your newly acquired ego. 

If you look at depression as a spectrum, those that are severely depressed and want to blame external factors can also infect those that are moderately depressed as they offer an easier option for them. Which is why these things catch on. 

The other big factor is obviously the internet, so before if you felt like this youd probably have to face up to your issues as it would just be difficult finding others that felt the same way. Now whatever issue youve got, you can find 100 other people who feel the same way. 

That being said it doesnt mean that there isnt truth in what the groups say, i think there is truth its just that its a slice of truth that benefits that group, and is usually weaponised against their opposites. For example, with red pill it would serve men to know womens nature as a lot of young men dont and treat women how they see in romcoms rather than as real people. For me thats not a bad message but it can be skewed and used as a means of attack against women which is not right. MGTOW has a lot of guys that have been through divorce etc it allows them to blame women, this to me is not going to help them get over this pain it just provides temporary relief at great external cost. 

 

[zambize]

8 hours ago, Emerald said:

Death does correspond to the feminine principle as does birth. It is the feminine that sews the seeds, nurtures the sprout, and reaps the harvest. This is personified in the triple goddess archetype of maiden, mother, and crone. And the crone that reaps the harvest is the personification of death. The feminine is also representative of nature and all the cycles within nature, which includes death. 

But don't let that scare you away from the feminine principle. It is dark and gritty but is also beautiful and regenerative. And it is also what keeps us grounded and embodied in our humanity... something that's been out of fashion for quite a few many millennia. 

Who decides all this stuff?   How was it studied?

[Emerald]

1 hour ago, zambize said:

Who decides all this stuff?   How was it studied?

It can be found in religious texts, myths, fairy tales, and symbolism across cultures that had no communication with one another.

Without science, there was a need for humanity to come up with truths in holistic and non-linear ways. So, people would seek truth and get visions, insights, and bursts of creativity that called upon particular common archetypes that had particular functions.

This can be especially pronounced in polytheistic religions where a certain God or Goddess was understood to control certain cycles within nature. And it was a way for pre-scientific humans to have an understanding of nature and their role in it. 

And we can see that there are usually Earth Goddesses and Sky Gods. And that in alchemy, the feminine elements are Earth and water and the masculine elements are fire and air. And in religions with the great mother being the center of the religion, it has a lot to do with Earth spirits and the cycles within nature. And in religions with a lone father God, there is a lot to do with denying Earthly pleasures and awaiting the heavenly ideal. 

So, you can start to notice patterns relative to the masculine and feminine in all sorts of texts, and you can even notice their influence in modern day as well... even if no one labels them in this way.

But since, in the modern day, we have science to explain everything, we are less likely to look into the ether of collective consciousness in order to find meaning. We already seemingly know how most things work with science, so we neglect holistic and non-linear exploration and may have a moralization against it. But there is still much there to be explored and it still has a shadow influence over society, since few people understand archetypes and what they mean and what forms they are taking in contemporary culture.

[Odysseus]

14 hours ago, CreamCat said:

Probably because I was not motivated to learn and understand your framework which is quite complex. Understanding your comments requires non-trivial amounts of background knowledge. Yin, yang, feminine, divine feminine, etc, etc, ...

That's a lot of pre-conceived notions. As you said, you are talking about esoteric concepts that your youtube channel subscribers might understand.

My framework is simple, and I want it to stay simple.

Let's say your framework is not particularly suitable for my life and vice versa.

 

13 hours ago, CreamCat said:

I was mostly reacting randomly to your points, based on what I know. As you said, I was giving random talking points. I was fooling around without a direction on this forum. Personally, I thought you might be better off without a lot of conceptualization, but that's just my opinion. To me, MGTOW, incel, SJW, etc, ... are just people who keep complaining in their comfort zones(i.e. their echo chambers). And, I don't worry that they will turn into something as threatening as KKK or nazi. I'm done fighting against ideologies.

Don't take my criticisms too seriously.

In retrospect, I realize that results will speak for themselves. Direct experience speaks truths. If whatever you're doing gets results that you want, keep doing it. Ignore my theories if your direct experience contradicts my theories.

I want to criticize you on that. Your framework isn't simple. It doesn't come from ascetic-like POV. It's judgmental and it displays a lack of open-mindedness and compassion. You may consider that you do not have it all figured out. Wish you all the best