The three classes of seekers, by R. Maharishi

[Key Elements]

"We walk this earth together, but the spiritual journey is walked alone."

- Buddha

[Preetom]

6 hours ago, Serotoninluv said:

@Preetom Regarding Adi Shankara’s characteristics of spiritual maturity, was their endpoint what they considered to be enlightenment? Did they also describe post-enlightenment characteristics?

I think it’s interesting to integrate sudden awakening with development / maturity. 

You can read 'Vivekchudamani' by Shankara that expands on these topics. I'm reading it now. You can find free PDFs in Google. See past some cultural baggage(like male body is superior than females etc) and take away what helps.

Regarding the endpoint, the most hallmark sign of the Enlightened one is  his/her unbroken identification with Brahman(which is Reality itself) and NEVER any exclusive identification with limited body-mind or other objects. In the final analysis, the self-realized sees this very universe as pure Consciousness and thus doesn't acknowledge any 2nd element in Reality. Even the concepts of Brahman and non-brahman are given up, which were helpful in the path.

About post Enlightenment characteristics, there aren't any action or particular doing that verify it. It's more like complete absence of clinging, delusion, neurotic passion, doubt, fear, suffering, hatred etc... Self-realization makes one progressively lose these things. It's not really about making a goal and work to develop something, that's what egos do best.

You can see why the most advanced teachings are expressed in negation and deconstruction. 

If you tell me to develop something like 'compassion', I'll immediately make an idea out of it and chase that idea like a silly dog for decades. You see what I mean? 

[Forestluv]

26 minutes ago, Preetom said:

If you tell me to develop something like 'compassion', I'll immediately make an idea out of it and chase that idea like a silly dog for decades. You see what I mean? 

What if there are trans-egoic, post-conceptual lines of development? In the Ox analogy of spiritual maturity, one might consider enlightenment to be around stage 4 of 10. It seems Shankara is acknowledging some form of spiritual process / stages / levels etc. I’m curious if they would consider enlightenment “stage 10”. 

[Preetom]

20 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

What if there are trans-egoic, post-conceptual lines of development? In the Ox analogy of spiritual maturity, enlightenment is like stage 4 of 10. 

Whatever that line of development is, see that if it is in 'time', then that means it is ego and delusion all over again.

To call things after Enlightenment as 'development' can be misleading. The basic premise is Reality is already perfect as it is. It is our delusion, clinging and unclear seeing that makes up all this friction and suffering. When one relinquishes all that, Reality flows like always. 

It is not like an 'entity' somewhere making plans and vision and working towards making Reality perfect; toiling towards making Reality as infinite love, bliss, wisdom etc..this just sounds absurd. 

Also if you wanna bring in the ox herding analogy, see that after the 5th stage (Taming the bull aka real unbroken abidance aka Enlightenment), there is no place for effort, doing, plans etc as we normally understand these terms. There is no ox herder working his butt off and reaching to 10th stage after stage 5. His days are long gone after stage 5 lol  

 

 

[Forestluv]

12 minutes ago, Preetom said:

Whatever that line of development is, see that if it is in 'time', then that means it is ego and delusion all over again.

To call things after Enlightenment as 'development' can be misleading. The basic premise is Reality is already perfect as it is. It is our delusion, clinging and unclear seeing that makes up all this friction and suffering. When one relinquishes all that, Reality flows like always. 

It is not like an 'entity' somewhere making plans and vision and working towards making Reality perfect; toiling towards making Reality as infinite love, bliss, wisdom etc..this just sounds absurd. 

Also if you wanna bring in the ox herding analogy, see that after the 5th stage (Taming the bull aka real unbroken abidance aka Enlightenment), there is no place for effort, doing, plans etc as we normally understand these terms. There is no ox herder working his butt off and reaching to 10th stage after stage 5. His days are long gone after stage 5 lol  

I’m referring to trans-egoic states. 

Development doesn’t require imperfection toward perfection. Development can include the unchanging perfection of Reality as it is.

Yes, after stage 5 becomes trans-egoic. 

[robdl]

What spiral stage do I belong to?

What seeker class do I belong to? 

Ego indeed loves its conceptual systems, categories-distinctions, and group identifications.

Edited December 24, 2018 by robdl

[Preetom]

12 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

I’m referring to trans-egoic states. 

Development doesn’t require imperfection toward perfection. Development can include the unchanging perfection of Reality as it is.

Yes, after stage 5 become trans-egoic. 

The basic theme of Jnana yoga(or the direct path) is once you realize the Self, you're only 'job' is to constantly abide there. Everything that needs to happen, all modifications and further insight will happen by itself.

Through this self abidance, all delusion and constriction evaporates, leaving Reality as it is. There are no 'levels' in that self-realization but the body, mind, world do take time to readjust through layers and levels. But the one thing to be clear is, there is no ego that is making those body-mind-world shifting. So it seems from the outside that you are 'developing' but to you yourself, you remain as nothing but the Self.

This also reminds me something I read by Eckhark Tolle. He talked about how the ego-mind clings to ideas like 'growth' or development and can't give them up. He gives examples of economists who can't help but calling periods of regression as 'negative growth'. He basically tries to show how cancerous ego can be haha  

So basically, I generally conclude that there IS growth and development from the on-lookers and they can make development models etc. But the self-realized one who abides in the Self, in his own experience, he doesn't recognize or experience any such thing. Hope that makes sense.

Edited December 24, 2018 by Preetom

[Forestluv]

@Preetom I’m using the term “development” in a post-rational, trans-personal, nonlinear context - not the traditional use of “development” in a self-based context within a storyline. In the more mature context, there is no “person” developing. 

I found the Shankara description interesting in that they seem to give benchmark characteristics within spiritual maturation.

[Preetom]

8 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

@Preetom I’m using the term “development” in a post-rational, trans-personal, nonlinear context - not the traditional use of “development” in a self-based context within a storyline. In the more mature context, there is no “person” developing. 

I found the Shankara description interesting in that they seem to give benchmark characteristics within spiritual maturation.

I understand. I can summarize Shankara's instruction like this.

Before Self-Realization: Discrimination and Dispassion (plus some other virtues) to see through ignorance and realize the Self.

After Self-Realization: Constant abidance as the Self (no other means or action involved)

Edited December 24, 2018 by Preetom

[Forestluv]

24 minutes ago, robdl said:

Ego indeed loves its conceptual systems, categories-distinctions, and group identifications.

Those features are as real as bird chips, intuition, the moon and paper clips. No need to throw shade on any thing. It’s the identification and attachment to those features that lead to a contracted mind state, not the features themselves.

[Forestluv]

1 minute ago, Preetom said:

I understand. I can summarize Shankara's instruction like this.

Before Self-Realization: Discrimination and Dispassion (plus some other virtues)

After Self-Realization: Constant abidance in the Self (no other means or action involved)

Sounds very straight-forward!

[Preetom]

1 minute ago, Serotoninluv said:

Those features are as real as bird chips, intuition, the moon and paper clips. No need to throw shade on any thing. It’s identification and attachment to those features that lead to a contracted mind state, not the features themselves.

Well said. Amen 

Just now, Serotoninluv said:

Sounds very straight-forward!

It is! No wonder it is called the direct path and not many people can stomach this  

[Forestluv]

Just now, Preetom said:

It is! No wonder it is called the direct path and not many people can stomach this  

Indeed. It is unpalatable to the ego. 

[robdl]

39 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

Those features are as real as bird chips, intuition, the moon and paper clips. No need to throw shade on any thing. It’s the identification and attachment to those features that lead to a contracted mind state, not the features themselves.

Did I insult you? That was not my intent.

I just see how potentially enticing these stages-classes are for ego to attach to/identify with. 

[Forestluv]

4 minutes ago, robdl said:

I just see how potentially enticing these stages-classes are for ego to attach to/identify with. 

Indeed they are, so juicy.

[robdl]

3 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

Indeed they are, so juicy.

Btw, anything I say about ego was/is also true of “my” ego.  I see this group identification action take place quite mechanically within myself.

[Key Elements]

7 hours ago, Serotoninluv said:

Ox analogy of spiritual maturity  

I bet it's a strange loop map. It doesn't end till the ego takes its last breath on earth. Hopefully, by then, the ego walked deep in its path, as deep as possible, and as many loops as possible (with a peace of mind, of course). Then, when it's all over, hopefully, the ego will finally graduate from school (earth), learned all its lessons, and achieve nirvana, and not have to repeat school again.