Pleasant / Engaging meditation practice ?

[Jordan94]

Hello, I'm a bit stuck against a wall now

Because in terms of my goals of life I put meditation on number one, right now not for a desire to seek truth/enlightenenment, but just in terms of the benefits, I realised there's nothing that could be better for my hapiness/life/enjoyment than getting to a good level of equanimity/presence/thoughtless state (ego orange based desire i'm aware of it, probably will subside later but it's fine for now i think)

But in terms of actual practice, the idea to put in 5-10 hours of seated meditation everyday doesn't thrill me at all, but that's what necessery in any domain to get really good, put in 35-70hours weekly of good/smart practice and that's how good progress will come, however in meditation as I said the idea of puting 35 hours of seated meditation in a week does not thrill me at all

But then there is a gap between what I 'want' and the reality and I don't think I will improve and get good without increasing the amount of time and effort I put in (for a long time i did 2 hours seated vipassana daily so 14 hours a week, and i've been doing a few vipassana retreats and meditating 30m-2hours a day for like 2 years and a half now)

 

So I thought the solution would be to find a practice or something that would benefit me in terms of meditation progress, but that would also be ok for me to put hours and hours into, in other words a practice that I would overall enjoy/like doing

 

What's your thoughts on that and then which practice you think could fill those criterias ?

[Aimblack]

If you like music you can use the music to meditate not as background but an actual tool which is quite fun. You can also learn to play an instrument and do that as a meditation that is also really fun but tricky at first. If you like sports then you can check out peter ralston's stuff.

[Elisabeth]

2 minutes ago, Jordan94 said:

for a long time i did 2 hours seated vipassana daily so 14 hours a week, and i've been doing a few vipassana retreats and meditating 30m-2hours a day for like 2 years and a half now

3

Sounds like lots of practice already, did you get results in you daily life?

I don't have that much practice at all, but I'd say try a bunch of different techniques for 2-4 weeks each and see what fits best. 

Or choose a system like Kryia, which doesn't require you to sit for more than two hours a day at all. 

[Jordan94]

Thanks for the answers, some good stuff

4 minutes ago, Aimblack said:

If you like music you can use the music to meditate not as background but an actual tool which is quite fun.

I do like music, but usually the music I like (hip hop) is heavily lyrics oriented so I just get thinking a lot and in my ego, and actually overall hurts a lot my meditations so I actually tried more and more to reduce it
Might be totally different with musics with no lyrics though I guess

5 minutes ago, Aimblack said:

You can also learn to play an instrument and do that as a meditation that is also really fun but tricky at first. If you like sports then you can check out peter ralston's stuff.

Yea that's the type of stuff that I'm looking for, something where I can meditate through it but would also be engaging and fun in itself
I'm not too much into learning to play an instrument, I was thinking about something simillar with a video game, called osu, basically it's a simple game where you have to click targets in rythm with a music let's say, I can use that as a focus/presence/awareness exercice and that could be exactly what I'm looking for because I can play it for hours
Although when I try to do that I usually just fall out of meditation practice into ego/thinking, maybe it's actually too engaging and can not really be good enough for meditation practice in that way ...

One other thing I thought about would be to do walking meditation instead of seated, already more fun/engaging for me, although still i'm not sure if I would be able to just do hours of it

 

 

9 minutes ago, Elisabeth said:

Sounds like lots of practice already, did you get results in you daily life?

I do feel clearly really strong and good results after a 10 day vipassana retreat, but then my benefits usually gradually go down (after like a month, while still doing 2 hours sittings a day) and after i lose the momentum of the retreat, there is definitly some results (it's also really hard to mesure it honestly), but I would say not worth 2 hours per day, I don't manage to get to a decent level enough so that I can actually be aware and equanimous of sensations enough in daily life (and even during the seatings it's a lot of monkey mind)

 

11 minutes ago, Elisabeth said:

I don't have that much practice at all, but I'd say try a bunch of different techniques for 2-4 weeks each and see what fits best. 

Or choose a system like Kryia, which doesn't require you to sit for more than two hours a day at all. 

Maybe vipassana is not the most cost effective technique in terms of time/result, maybe i'm also not too 'talented' at it (I think that I have a really smart and fast mind/brain, which is good for a lot of things, but is actually used to do the opposite of focused/slow/deep attention, so maybe i'm not too gifted at meditation naturally, or maybe it's a false excuce and i'm normal for it I don't know)

I will try more kriya again, but again I feel like if I want some good good results as puting meditation of my top goal in life, there has to be also a good amount of time/efforts that goes into it

[Sashaj]

I would suggest using the concentration of that smart and fast brain as a meditation tool

[Aimblack]

28 minutes ago, Jordan94 said:

I do like music, but usually the music I like (hip hop) is heavily lyrics oriented so I just get thinking a lot and in my ego, and actually overall hurts a lot my meditations so I actually tried more and more to reduce it
Might be totally different with musics with no lyrics though I guess

That is the point by learning to meditate with stuff that triggers monkey mind and ego you progress faster because the resistance is higher and you push through that.

 

30 minutes ago, Jordan94 said:

Yea that's the type of stuff that I'm looking for, something where I can meditate through it but would also be engaging and fun in itself
I'm not too much into learning to play an instrument, I was thinking about something simillar with a video game, called osu, basically it's a simple game where you have to click targets in rythm with a music let's say, I can use that as a focus/presence/awareness exercice and that could be exactly what I'm looking for because I can play it for hours
Although when I try to do that I usually just fall out of meditation practice into ego/thinking, maybe it's actually too engaging and can not really be good enough for meditation practice in that way ...

One other thing I thought about would be to do walking meditation instead of seated, already more fun/engaging for me, although still i'm not sure if I would be able to just do hours of it

Yea it sounds like Shinzen Young's material is perfect for you especially because you already do vippassanna. IMHO instead of aiming at doing one thing for hours it could be more productive to do all the things you do normally as a meditation. It seems to me you have alot of dedication so you can definitely pull it off. I have been actually trying the same thing for months now.

[Jordan94]

Thanks I really feel like improving and getting unstuck on that

41 minutes ago, Aimblack said:

1 hour ago, Jordan94 said:

I do like music, but usually the music I like (hip hop) is heavily lyrics oriented so I just get thinking a lot and in my ego, and actually overall hurts a lot my meditations so I actually tried more and more to reduce it
Might be totally different with musics with no lyrics though I guess

That is the point by learning to meditate with stuff that triggers monkey mind and ego you progress faster because the resistance is higher and you push through that.

Okay makes sense and that's really interesting then, I'll try it with music and try to stay aware of sensations or sight then, do small timers of it, if it's too hard also have easier ones with just beats with no lyrics

 

41 minutes ago, Aimblack said:

Yea it sounds like Shinzen Young's material is perfect for you especially because you already do vippassanna. IMHO instead of aiming at doing one thing for hours it could be more productive to do all the things you do normally as a meditation. It seems to me you have alot of dedication so you can definitely pull it off. I have been actually trying the same thing for months now.

Yea great idea, it's funny I thought about it as well just a few minutes ago thinking about this, one way is to add more hours of 'meditation practice', but another way even smarter is to turn already existing hours doing xyz into meditation practice

One belief that I kinda always had about it is that in order to do that correctly (meaning some actual %age of the time that is focused on the meditation technique), I need to already have a good enough quality of meditation during seated meditation, as a prerequisit kind of, and if that's not the case it'll just be too hard/distracting implementing the meditaiton in activities
In a way that if my quality of meditation is not good enough in seated yet, the way to improve has to go first during seated meditation or at least 'comited meditation time' let's say
But it's probably just a limiting belief, and puting effort/focus (and some structure I think, meaning specific times specific things) into improving the 'during an activity meditation' probably just works as fine as improving the seated meditation time

 

Edit : Also about Shinzen Young, I googled his name and found that his work is basically about mindfullness meditation, is theer also some other material in his work like premade drills/tools/exercice/whatever that you were pointing to ? Or it just meant mindfullness meditation basically ?

Edited December 3, 2018 by Jordan94

[Girzo]

If you see decay of results after Vipassana retreat then Kriya might be for you. It's enough for me to keep the fire from retreat to retreat and I don't do daily Vipassana practice, only Kriya.

Breaking through once or twice on a psychedelic might also show you a new direction for your practice.

[non_nothing]

If you taught for 2 hours, then you should do 2 hours. My path of school was for me less or more, but the key was the consistency. You must commit doing it everyday for X time. That being said, within my experience, I started off with silencing my thoughts practice. After a while, I did not scheduled any method of meditation, I totally go random for every session. My meditation types of sessions are listed below:

- Counting to infinity (till meditation ends), I count my breaths which basically is around 4 seconds, so whenever i inhale and exhale basically 8 seconds is passed and I remember the number 2. then another inhale i say 3 in my mind, this goes on. I remember counting to 1000 with this method I guess it take couple of hours to accomplish yet not be able to tell/describe how the time just flew off with this method.

- Silencing thoughts. I think this is obvious teaching and I won't go in details if you don't know, mention me and I will explain.

- Rolling on senses: Basically like a clockwork, I change the focus on the following senses: Eyes (obviously dark screen when eyes closed), Hearing (outside), Feeling (inside/ body, start to scan from feet to head), Imagination (visualize, my method was to visualize pokemons lol really. try to get details in mind) next is hearing, usually I try to hear music especially with no lyrics in my head, -OR- try to let inner voice talk gibberish or let him talk intentionally. Sometimes it goes like this (inner voice) "Yeah now I'm talking and this is my inner voice, this is amazing I control my inner voice bla bla bla" all kind of chatters inside, the next sense is the inner feelings, basically I try to focus on how do I feel at that moment. e.g. feeling peace, feeling calm, feeling the process of getting better with each cycle, feeling depressed maybe?, feeling worried, feeling happy, feeling nothing etc. list goes on. then I complete this whole cycle and start from focusing on eyes (dark scene)

- Breathing: Similar to shamanic breathing method Leo described, I also do variations, I find Leo's tempo is a bit fast for this type of meditation at least. Shamanic breathing is a separate exercise on its own. But I've made a variation on that through my meditation sessions.

 

- Letting go of everything: Let ego do what ever he wants to do, extreme cases were for me to dance ? LOL. But just because you read this doesn't mean everytime you stand up and dance. If you get the sense of what I mean, then try this.

 

These all I can remember for the moment. Peace and blessings on your path.

[ZZZZ]

Yoga and martial arts are two big ones that come to mind. Work those in with self inquiry, meditation, reading books on non-duality/spirituality/etc. and you will probably find yourself much more engaged than if you just "sat on the cushion" for 5 hours straight. 

[Salvijus]

Hmmmmm

Well.. Yoga that is being taught by sadhguru is very engaging and entertaining. Plus benefits outweight way beyond the time you put in. Mostly because of sadhguru's grace. 

What's interesting that if you do all sadhguru's programs you'll be doing extreme spirituality like 10h a day. And it doesn't get board because it's like a Disney Land. 

You do one yoga practice for balance another for enhancing your energies another for purifying your system another for preparing your body for high levels of energy another for psychological mental benefits another for blissfulness another for worshiping and devotion another for emptiness and detachment another for dissolving yourself, dissolving your karma, another one for samadhi. And when you do all that. It takes 10h but it's not like you stare at one point for 10h. Each practice is so so different. Each practice is so rich in what it has to offer and the best part is that it's all part of the same thing. Everything is being done to prepare you for the ultimate. 

There's one practice in witch they even teach you how to meditate with eyes open and then you go to do your things and you're in meditation. Then it's like 24h Yoga.

And you don't need to do all of them. You can just pick one for balance or purity or whatever. It takes about 20min-60min to do it. If that's not enough you add one more practice for what you need in your life most. It's like a candy land. Whatever you want you can find it there. 

 

Edited December 3, 2018 by Salvijus

[InfinitePotential]

Perhaps dynamic meditation?

[Jordan94]

2 hours ago, Girzo said:

If you see decay of results after Vipassana retreat then Kriya might be for you. It's enough for me to keep the fire from retreat to retreat and I don't do daily Vipassana practice, only Kriya.

Yea I thought already that maybe vipassana isn't the most effective technique in terms of time/results, and that kriya might be way better at it

I discovered and tried kriya for the first time a bit more than 3 months ago, first week I got good and engaging results, then after that I went into a phase of big focus in work (60hours a week) untl now, so i still did 30minutes a day of kriya but really mechanical and with my mind/ego focused in my work even during meditation, so the results were way less good but it was because of this intense work focused period

I have a 10 day vipassana retreat in 2 days, then I will have the retreat momentum as well, so after that I'll do at least 2 hours seated daily probably splitted between different techniques experimenting what would be best for me, and also experimenting and implementing differents 'out of seated time' meditation practices as well, and for sure i'll do at least 30minutes kriya daily

 

@non_nothing Ok thanks for the answer, i'm familliar with all of these techniques, some of them seems more appealling to me than other, at least if I do them sitting I would be in the position that I described earlier where I don't really want to do any of these for hours daily, so either I could try to implement them in 'non seated meditation times', or maybe find other techniques that would be more enjoyable for me to do even for long periods of time

 

1 hour ago, ZZZZ said:

Yoga and martial arts are two big ones that come to mind. Work those in with self inquiry, meditation, reading books on non-duality/spirituality/etc. and you will probably find yourself much more engaged than if you just "sat on the cushion" for 5 hours straight. 

Thanks really good advices
I've always been interested about the idea of martial art/fighting, but never really went into really finding a club/whatever to do so, the fact that I change city/country (i'm digital nomad) every 1-3 months doesn't help a lot though

About Yoga you're talking about hatha yoga in particular ?

And totally agree for the books etc, I find my meditation going soooo much better after I spend some time reading an Eckhart Tolle book or watching one of Leo's video for example
Maybe putting more consistent time on that is also a good idea

 

48 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

Hmmmmm

Well.. Yoga that is being taught by sadhguru is very engaging and entertaining. Plus benefits outweight way beyond the time you put in. Mostly because of sadhguru's grace. 

What's interesting that if you do all sadhguru's programs you'll be doing extreme spirituality like 10h a day. And it doesn't get board because it's like a Disney Land. 

You do one yoga practice for balance another for enhancing your energies another for purifying your system another for preparing your body for high levels of energy another for psychological mental benefits another for blissfulness another for worshiping and devotion another for emptiness and detachment another for dissolving yourself, dissolving your karma, another one for samadhi. And when you do all that. It takes 10h but it's not like you stare at one point for 10h. Each practice is so so different. Each practice is so rich in what it has to offer and the best part is that it's all part of the same thing. Everything is being done to prepare you for the ultimate. 

There's one practice in witch they even teach you how to meditate with eyes open and then you go to do your things and you're in meditation. Then it's like 24h Yoga.

And you don't need to do all of them. You can just pick one for balance or purity or whatever. It takes about 20min-60min to do it. If that's not enough you add one more practice for what you need in your life most. It's like a candy land. Whatever you want you can find it there. 

Sounds interesting yea, same benefit as with Kriya yoga can be more engaging and then a bit better on that part
Are all of those only included in paied programes or I can find them somewhere ?

 

@InfinitePotential yea already the name dynamic meditation sounds like something that could be in the direction of what I'm looking for
Could you recommend me some content/ressources/techniques about it ?

Edited December 3, 2018 by Jordan94

[Girzo]

@Jordan94 Dynamic meditation is OSHO's idea. Made for people who can't meditate properly, so those techniques are thought to make you tired and surrender to the practice.

I am not sure, if that's what you are looking for, since you have no problem sitting through 10 day Vipassana retreats and practice daily. It's aimed more at people with crazy monkey-mind.

I think instead of putting more and more hours and looking for new practices you simply need to put more effort into refining the techniques you already know.

Mastery = number of repetitions x quality of repetitions. If you are doing sloppy meditation for 1000 hours, you will be sloppy meditator forever.

And btw, any yoga can be done 24/7, because there different exercises with no limits and mantras, etc. Plus you can't really beat effectiveness of mindfullness, if you have a lot of time. Shinzen's one is great and can be done during many other activities.

If you can't force yourself to spend more time on those techniques, that's okay. Personally, I wouldn't switch to any inferior technique, but simply accept the fact that it's my limit for now.

[Aimblack]

@Jordan94 Good luck. The unified mindfulness system breaks mindfulness down into 3 components( Concentration, equanimity, sensory clarity) as long as you are training those 3 skills whatever you are doing is a mindfulness meditation. So if you listen to the rhythm of a song and keep your focus on that rhythm then that is a mindfulness meditation. If you are doing a walking meditation then that is also a mindfulness meditation. The beauty of his system is that it is so flexible.

[Jordan94]

11 hours ago, Girzo said:

Dynamic meditation is OSHO's idea. Made for people who can't meditate properly, so those techniques are thought to make you tired and surrender to the practice.

I am not sure, if that's what you are looking for, since you have no problem sitting through 10 day Vipassana retreats and practice daily. It's aimed more at people with crazy monkey-mind.

I can sit during x hours but it doesn't mean that my practice are always really qualitative, far from that, usually on my 2 hours daily of vipassana I would say that barely 20-25% of the time i'm actually having an ok focus doing the technique (meaning not laser focus, sometimes it's just half focus on the background of the mind), sometimes even lower than that
Seems quite low to me, although I don't know what would be the norm here ?
As another example, I tried leo's concentration technique focusing on a metronome, after like a week, I was not able to keep focus for 1minute without any 2secondes+ interuption), and even 30s I often wouldn't be really clean on having a 30s focus without any 1s+ interuption

 

12 hours ago, Girzo said:

I think instead of putting more and more hours and looking for new practices you simply need to put more effort into refining the techniques you already know.

Mastery = number of repetitions x quality of repetitions. If you are doing sloppy meditation for 1000 hours, you will be sloppy meditator forever.

Yea true, especially when I feel that my quality of meditation is overall quite bad (except during and up to a few weeks after retreats)

But easier said then done, how to improve the quality then ?

12 hours ago, Girzo said:

And btw, any yoga can be done 24/7, because there different exercises with no limits and mantras, etc. Plus you can't really beat effectiveness of mindfullness, if you have a lot of time. Shinzen's one is great and can be done during many other activities.

Yea there is definitly a great power and potential into implementing more mindfulness/non-sitted meditation I think, so i'm gonna do just that
About shinzen, does his technique/material have something more/special to it ? Or it's basically just mindfulness meditation ?

 

6 hours ago, Aimblack said:

Good luck. The unified mindfulness system breaks mindfulness down into 3 components( Concentration, equanimity, sensory clarity) as long as you are training those 3 skills whatever you are doing is a mindfulness meditation. So if you listen to the rhythm of a song and keep your focus on that rhythm then that is a mindfulness meditation. If you are doing a walking meditation then that is also a mindfulness meditation. The beauty of his system is that it is so flexible.

There's the 2 parts that they teach us in vipassana, awareness and equanimity, it's funny, and I already thought during retreats that there is a 3rd component that I would call "time focused" that was the last part of the equation, so we get exactly that here it's great

I feel like yea it's pretty good for the position I'm in since I do like the principle and benefits of vipassana, it's basically the same thing here

[ZZZZ]

I wasn't referring to any specific type of yoga, but that could probably work well! Any sort of physical activity where you can remain mindful and incorporate your body would probbly add a different aspect to your training. It is tough to stay consistent with martial arts if you are constantly moving... I would recommend something like taekwondo with set sequeces of movements that would translate dojo to dojo. If you are looking for something a little more contact/practical oriented and interested in the grappling aspect of things, brazillian jiujitsu is wonderful... Although I think that would be veering farther away from the mindfulness aspect of things. I've heard good things about karate, kung fu, etc. in that regard. Ooh, and aikido.