EternalForest

My biggest issue with Christianity overlaps to Enlightenment

21 posts in this topic

The reason I stopped believing in Christianity is when I realized that God had no interest in speaking to his people directly, but rather through an ancient book or prophets. If God wants to have a relationship with his people, why does he have to beat around the bush? He's God, there's no reason why he can't speak to his people directly. Furthermore, why are people destined to Hell by default? Why can't they go to Heaven by default, until they are shown wicked enough to go to Hell? Guilty until proven innocent, it seems.

My same concerns with Christianity overlap to the idea of Enlightenment and "catching the ox". If the ox is so graceful and wonderful, why can't it come to us? Why the need to chase it? And why are we un-enlightened by default? Why aren't we born enlightened but then through our own desire or action can choose to become un-enlightened? And if this "ox" is sentient (which, according to what I've read is part of all of us), why can't "we" give "ourselves" enlightenment directly, if we're technically all already enlightened, or rather if we "are" enlightenment already?

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11 minutes ago, EternalForest said:

My same concerns with Christianity overlap to the idea of Enlightenment and "catching the ox". If the ox is so graceful and wonderful, why can't it come to us? Why the need to chase it? And why are we un-enlightened by default? Why aren't we born enlightened but then through our own desire or action can choose to become un-enlightened? And if this "ox" is sentient (which, according to what I've read is part of all of us), why can't "we" give "ourselves" enlightenment directly, if we're technically all already enlightened, or rather if we "are" enlightenment already?

See: Infinity

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13 minutes ago, EternalForest said:

The reason I stopped believing in Christianity is when I realized that God had no interest in speaking to his people directly, but rather through an ancient book or prophets. If God wants to have a relationship with his people, why does he have to beat around the bush? He's God, there's no reason why he can't speak to his people directly. Furthermore, why are people destined to Hell by default? Why can't they go to Heaven by default, until they are shown wicked enough to go to Hell? Guilty until proven innocent, it seems.

My same concerns with Christianity overlap to the idea of Enlightenment and "catching the ox". If the ox is so graceful and wonderful, why can't it come to us? Why the need to chase it? And why are we un-enlightened by default? Why aren't we born enlightened but then through our own desire or action can choose to become un-enlightened? And if this "ox" is sentient (which, according to what I've read is part of all of us), why can't "we" give "ourselves" enlightenment directly, if we're technically all already enlightened, or rather if we "are" enlightenment already?

If you can 'become' enlightened, you can 'become' unenlightened.  If someone can 'lose' an ego, they can gain an ego.

Better to question who wants to 'get' enlightened, who is it that has an ego?

Very suspect, very sneaky right?

What is the nature of thought?  Is the thinker different from thought?  Hmmm ?

 

Edited by MiracleMan

Grace

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1 minute ago, MiracleMan said:

If you can 'become' enlightened, you can 'become' unenlightened.  If someone loses an ego, they can gain an ego.

Better to question who wants to 'get' enlightened, who is it that has an ego?

Very suspect, very sneaky right?

What is the nature of thought?  Is the thinker different from thought?  Hmmm ?

 

Is the experiencer different from that which it experiences? Fosho dude?

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@MiracleMan I've already accepted there is no real "I", and I could also accept that we are all the same consciousness. But...if we're the same consciousness...what else is there to find? And if it really does run away from us, hell, I AM the ox! So what is it running from? Nothing. So either the ox doesn't exist or it doesn't like to be questioned.

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Maybe the me is chasing itself(time/the ox). 

Maybe ‘the chasing’ is the movement of thought/thinker(psychological continuity). 

The chaser and chasing are the same movement of time(thought). 

Edited by Jack River

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The path=self/ego 

The projection and pursuit of this OX=self/ego. 

In such pursuit implies the self/divison(time) is still in movement. 

We tend to understand the notion of no self intellectually/conceptually, but not actually. 

 

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I think you are assuming an external "god". I'd like to offer another set of "what ifs". . . What if Jesus was a human being that became fully enlightened and returned to society to teach others? This would be a stage 10 enlightened being with the Ox analogy. How would such an enlightened being be perceived by Bronze Age civilization? Well, in Spiral Dynamics terms, we are talking about civilization centered in purple/red. Mostly irrational, binary thinking modes of being. Could an enlightened being resonate with purple/red beings? I would imagine, yes. Could purple/red beings misinterpret higher level spiritual teachings? I would imagine, yes.  Could an enlightened being appear threatening to the power structure of societal warlords and dictators? I would imagine, yes.

Regarding the Ox. Who is this "us" that you think the Ox should come toward? Who is chasing the Ox? . . . The Ox story is a good analogy because most human minds are structured and conditioned to perceive duality within a timeline. There is me and the Ox. Over time, I shall seek, capture and tame the Ox. . . Well, why not just embody and be the Ox right here and now? Why not skip the epic journey / struggles and just wake up right here and now? One may need to go through their journey to discover the answer. . . 

26 minutes ago, EternalForest said:

I've already accepted there is no real "I", and I could also accept that we are all the same consciousness. But...if we're the same consciousness...what else is there to find? And if it really does run away from us, hell, I AM the ox! So what is it running from? Nothing. So either the ox doesn't exist or it doesn't like to be questioned.

Or you haven't embodied the Ox yet. . . Conceptual understanding needs to be integrated with direct experience to embody deeper levels. It doesn't sound like you've had a good look at the Ox. It sounds like you are imagining the essence of OXness as you walk along the path in search of the actual Ox.

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if we were born enlightened there would be no punchline...

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@EternalForest God is always here, always talking, but your eyes and ears are closed.

See, the trick is, YOU ARE GOD! So if you don't see that, who can ever help you?

The ox can't come to you for the same reason that you can't find your eyeglasses if you are already wearing them!


You are God. You are Truth. You are Love. You are Infinity.

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@Leo Gura It sounds nice but it also sounds like an argument from ignorance. (It's true just because it hasn't been proven to be false or I'm somehow blind to it.) You could replace "God" in that paragraph with anything and you would be equally right. It's an unfalsifiable claim! I'm going out on a limb here to understand this whole concept but it just requires too much suspension of disbelief to the point of me risking being deluded. If what I've observed is correct, this suspension of disbelief is required to "break through" and have "direct experience", but I'm afraid of using such vulnerable direct experience since it's so subjective.

I could close my eyes and imagine I'm on the top of Mount Everest, but that doesn't mean I'm there, just like I could close my eyes and have a mystical experience, but at the end of the day it only means something to me. Ironically, direct experience is the most personally valuable yet also the least objectively demonstrable evidence. I mean, let's say everyone on the Earth became Enlightened and shared experiences and those experiences were found to be all consistent with each other. We still haven't found a cause. My question is: what's the cause of the sensation of Enlightenment?

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12 minutes ago, EternalForest said:

It's an unfalsifiable claim! I'm going out on a limb here to understand this whole concept but it just requires too much suspension of disbelief to the point of me risking being deluded.

Lol, you can't falsify truth!

You're still not getting it. Enlightenment not an idea or a belief.

You are God. I'm not saying that poetically or metaphorically. It is the case. You created the entire dream you call this universe. And now you're acting like you didn't. You cannot falsify this because it is true. All you can do is realize it or not.

Enlightenment is not a sensation. And cause does not exist.

Your mistake is that you think you can think your way out of this problem. But you can't.


You are God. You are Truth. You are Love. You are Infinity.

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3 hours ago, EternalForest said:

why can't "we" give "ourselves" enlightenment directly, if we're technically all already enlightened, or rather if we "are" enlightenment already?

Maybe because we can't give ourselves what we already have ?

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6 hours ago, EternalForest said:

I've already accepted there is no real "I", and I could also accept that we are all the same consciousness.

 

3 hours ago, EternalForest said:

I could close my eyes and imagine I'm on the top of Mount Everest, but that doesn't mean I'm there, just like I could close my eyes and have a mystical experience, but at the end of the day it only means something to me. Ironically, direct experience is the most personally valuable yet also the least objectively demonstrable evidence. I mean, let's say everyone on the Earth became Enlightened and shared experiences and those experiences were found to be all consistent with each other. We still haven't found a cause. My question is: what's the cause of the sensation of Enlightenment?

You say you have accepted there is no “I”, yet you speak from the perspective of a self.

This is far more radical than you are aware of. It goes so far beyond logic, reason and objectivism. It comes prior to all the concepts in your mind. 

A rationalist will perceive both irrational and post-rational as irrational. It’s a formidable hurdle to get over, but it’s oh so worth the work.

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4 hours ago, EternalForest said:

I've already accepted there is no real "I", and I could also accept that we are all the same consciousness.

This means nothing. You are still totally lost in concepts. It does not mater what you believe, the fact remains that you are under the delusion of being a self.

Thinking you are not a self is not the same thing as actually not being a self.

It is the difference between thinking you are a millionaire and actually being one.


You are God. You are Truth. You are Love. You are Infinity.

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I think problem is the fact that even though you are everything, you are still only one part you are experiencing, so you have to break that concept anyway to realize full you. 

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@Serotoninluv I see the value of post-rational thought, and I believe I've had some glimpses at the Ox, but it's been scattered times and has never been consistent. I've had feelings, experiences and states which I consider extraordinary (extra-ordinary). But my attempts to rationalize them have always failed and I suppose this thread is my continued attempt to doubt the undoubtable, attempt to explain the unexplainable. After a calm and mindful lunch I had today I was just driving peacefully, totally soaked in the present moment and thought, this, this is the meaning of life. It just speaks to me at certain days and moments.

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2 hours ago, EternalForest said:

@Serotoninluv I see the value of post-rational thought, and I believe I've had some glimpses at the Ox, but it's been scattered times and has never been consistent. I've had feelings, experiences and states which I consider extraordinary (extra-ordinary). But my attempts to rationalize them have always failed and I suppose this thread is my continued attempt to doubt the undoubtable, attempt to explain the unexplainable. After a calm and mindful lunch I had today I was just driving peacefully, totally soaked in the present moment and thought, this, this is the meaning of life. It just speaks to me at certain days and moments.

Very nice. I love those moments. One thing that came to mind when I read your post is the experience of life prior to the thinking.

I like how you said "trying to explain the unexplainable". That's perfect. I was so analytical about everything. I was afraid of letting go and being taken as a sucker if this was all bullshit. Yet, I also sensed that there was something I was missing in life and I yearned to discover what that was.

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@EternalForestThere's no real answer to your questions. Basically it is the way it is because that's the way it is. Or if you really want a rational answer one could say that evolution has made humans strongly identify with ego. To never be content with the present moment has helped humankind survive. But it does come with the price of always have to suffer.

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