I am enlightened. Sincere seekers: ask me anything

[Annoynymous]

@winterknight have you heard about spiral dynamics? If i climb according spiral dynamics ladder, will i be able to enlightened? 

[Emanyalpsid]

7 hours ago, graded24 said:

Most earning livelihood methods would come invariably with two kinds of thoughts: competition and survival. Both are me-my-thoughts. They provide a kind of orientation to the person by organizing their 'to-do's in a hierarchy of priority and, perhaps more importantly, answering  'what should i do' questions on multiple scales, from their day to day activity to big career moves. It is very hard to orient oneself in a profession if one disregard me-thoughts. Can I orient myself with me-thoughts while simultaneously inquiring who these thoughts are arising to? 

Relateable situation, I struggeled with this in the past. It is actually very simple. Don't focus on what you want, but on what you like. There is a difference between them as wanting something is holding on to something, liking something is just enjoying it. However, liking something could lead to wanting something. It is just a matter of being aware of this.

So; what do you like? could it be of help to others? and therefore maintain your survival? 

In order to survive one has to think and act for himself a bit and how to spend your time on this beautiful earth. This does not mean you can not help others! Surviving by helping others is the ideal.

Or you have someone who does this for you..

Or you starve and your body will stop functioning and you cease to exist..

Edited November 12, 2018 by Emanyalpsid

[winterknight]

7 hours ago, Shin said:

@winterknight

So we should basically just inquire in what we are ?

For now I don't use words anymore, I just concentrate on the point behind my eyes, where I feel I am but ain't (there is just empty space).

It is like I was locked into this perception field around that body/mind, but sometimes I can feel it's just me being stuck here, rather than what I really am.

It is like I was a camera of perception around it, but this camera could be anywhere else.

 

I don't recommend concentration on points on the body. I recommend Ramana Maharshi's self-inquiry method. It's very specific.

5 hours ago, Preetom said:

@winterknight

This is a practice related question.

The self-inquiry beings as following/seeking the 'I' feeling. But after some time there comes to a point when a sort of effortless witnessing happens. There is no longer attachment to any particular object. The attention is loose...just a simple knowing of presence prevails.

So at that time, is it better to stay in that relaxed witnessing mode or should I keep probing and seeking the source of this 'knowing' actively until a surrender happens on it's own?

Note: In that mode, 'I' is not felt as something located anywhere particularly. Even the mind movements to seek in different directions are witnessed inside a borderless, aware presence.

If you are in that state, if it is a state of calm, clear peace even while you are awake and doing things in the world -- which it sounds like it is -- you can simply stay in it and relax. No need to interrupt that with further deliberate inquiry. But if you fall out of it (which you may), then use inquiry to get back. And repeat.

5 hours ago, non_nothing said:

@winterknight Does self-inquiry is the practice for awaiting an experience to come into?, not for an intellectual answer as It can be understood by the mind, but not fully embraced within lets say every cell?

I wouldn't say it's waiting for an experience. It's inquiring into your nature until you see past an illusion. Follow Ramana Maharshi's method.

5 hours ago, Ero said:

@winterknight

Braa. A mindfuck :No matter what "I" does - whilst in the perception, it's talking to itself. What it says and what it perceives-entirely morphed by its illusion. You can't go "outside" of it. Can't "talk" to you - it's all within my perception-what you say or what you explain-what I'll make out of it /understand is only within my perception. The end to it is when there's no longer a "receiver". So then there's being. Experiencing itself in consciousness. Where then it is just being... No longer even an "I". Every time the "I" imagines, tries to see outside..(3rd person pov) it's within consciousness, morphed by my perception... until there's no "I". Only being. 

Does it really matter what I ask - Do you relate? Do "I" relate? Damn. 

 

p. s not just related to people... all... I fear myself. I love myself. I see myself. I create myself. I destroy myself. I play as if other things exist. At the end I don't exist. 

 

Nice. This sounds like  you are glimpsing the Truth. Now knowing this, can you just relax, letting whatever happens happen, since there is "no longer even an I," as you say? Might be worth a try.

3 hours ago, Jordan94 said:

@winterknight about psychoanalysis therapy, would it be a problem to change the therapist often ? Basically I move to another city/country every 1 to 3 months usually

Yes, it's a problem. If this is the case, you might go for a psychoanalyst on Skype. Contact your city's institute and ask if they know anyone who would do that. So that way you can meet them first in person, and then continue with them on Skype.

2 hours ago, Salvijus said:

@winterknight what do you think about Mooji or Papaji?

 

What mudra do you keep, or where do you keep your hands when you do self-enquiry in sitting position?

Don't know enough about Mooji or Papaji to have an opinion, to be honest. Self-inquiry should be done in the sitting position only at the very beginning; it really needs to be done in every waking moment, whatever else you are doing. Doesn't matter what mudra you use.

1 hour ago, Pouya said:

A no self experienced happened lately and I experienced myself as everything that is happening right now. I wasn't percieving outside from inside but i was the outside. I don't think I realized the Truth or something because I feel deluded and lost tho.

No idea of me anymore but what is the experience that is happening doesnt make any sense. It seems like no matter Physical or mental (dream like), it is like more lies.

Good, that's progress. Keep inquiring into the Self. And get some psychodynamic/psychoanalytic therapy for support in this process.

3 minutes ago, Annoynymous said:

@winterknight have you heard about spiral dynamics? If i climb according spiral dynamics ladder, will i be able to enlightened? 

Know nothing about spiral dynamics, sorry.

[Annoynymous]

@winterknight you have said earlier that it is needed to know what our fear trying to tell us, ruther than trying to overcome fear. Why is it so? What is there for me if i know what fear is trying to tell me?

[Outer]

8 hours ago, winterknight said:

It is hard. Some people will never be convinced, but some people want to be convinced but just haven't been yet. This second group has at least some possibility.

The basic argument that kind of works is this. The idea that the brain generates consciousness is materialism: everything comes from matter. Matter is that which can be observed by everyone equally. In theory, all humans, with the right instruments, should have access to it. That's the whole beauty and point of science -- it is publicly observable.

But in fact, you can never know what someone else's experience is really like. You can never know, for example, whether their color blue is really like your color blue. Even if a computer monitor printed out the color of what they saw when they looked at a clear sky, you could actually know it. Why is that? Because it would be you looking at the monitor. Maybe they would see something different.  

So if other people's experience is something that you can never actually directly access, then it is not publicly accessible. If it is not publicly accessible, then it is not scientific. If it is not scientific, then the brain cannot account for it. So each person's experience cannot be accounted for in the brain. Therefore the brain does not generate consciousness.

Whew. Oversimplified, but that's the argument in a nutshell. Look up the hard problem of consciousness, spectrum inversion, and the zombie problem if you want more serious philosophy on these points. But they get quite complex. 

Color isn't necessary, can you think of something else? It's so unlikely that everything isn't from material processes. It's not absolute knowledge, but it's likely to be the case.

What if science figures out exactly how consciousness is created by the brain? How will that change the work towards Awakening?

Maybe the Self is what we are when we are human, or any other conscious being for that. In fact I think it's likely it is like that. But that doesn't change much, as long as we're human or conscious we're the Self. You are human now so you are the Self because you are conscious.

[winterknight]

5 minutes ago, Annoynymous said:

@winterknight you have said earlier that it is needed to know what our fear trying to tell us, ruther than trying to overcome fear. Why is it so? What is there for me if i know what fear is trying to tell me?

If you really knew what it was trying to tell you, you wouldn't feel like you needed to 'overcome' it. That language suggests that fear is some kind of enemy. It is not. It's a voice within yourself that is trying to help you.

If you listen to it, you should try to address its concerns. Is the fear realistic, for example? Or if it is not realistic, then what is it really about? Maybe it's about something different than what it seems. This is again why I recommend psychodynamic/psychoanalytic therapy. It can help you with this.

If you really know what the fear is telling you, it shouldn't feel like you are "overcoming" it... it should feel like a gentle process... like you are deciding to act after having carefully and compassionately listened to what the fear is about and having tried to address those concerns as best you can. There are many voices, desires, and concerns within ourself. We need to try to listen to them all, let the whole richness of their points of view come into our consciousness.

[winterknight]

6 minutes ago, Outer said:

Color isn't necessary, can you think of something else? It's so unlikely that everything isn't from material processes. It's not absolute knowledge, but it's likely to be the case.

Of course. Literally any element of your experience for which you use shared language has the same piece. Does another person experience the same thing when you talk about love, couches, or numbers? You may use the same word but the experiences could be radically different. And you will never, even with all the scientific instruments, be able to know what someone else's experience is really like because you, as observer, stand in the way.

Quote

What if science figures out exactly how consciousness is created by the brain? How will that change the work towards Awakening?

Maybe the Self is what we are when we are human, or any other conscious being for that. In fact I think it's likely it is like that. But that doesn't change much, as long as we're human or conscious we're the Self. You are human now so you are the Self because you are conscious.

Science can't figure that out, because it's impossible . Dead matter cannot generate sentience. 

No, the Self goes beyond being human, in fact goes beyond all concepts. You can experience that fact directly for yourself if you like.

Edited November 12, 2018 by winterknight

[Outer]

6 minutes ago, winterknight said:

Of course. Literally any element of your experience for which you use shared language has the same piece. Does another person experience the same thing when you talk about love, couches, or numbers? You may use the same word but the experiences could be radically different. And you will never, even with all the scientific instruments, be able to know what someone else's experience is really like because you, as observer, stand in the way.

I'm talking about neuroscience, brains, hands, cars, these are consistent. Vague feelings about love or whatever can be seen in the brain anyway.

8 minutes ago, winterknight said:

Science can't figure that out, because it's impossible . Dead matter cannot generate sentience. 

No, the Self goes beyond being human, in fact goes beyond all concepts. You can experience that fact directly for yourself if you like.

It was also impossible to figure out how life arises out of material processes, that it must be some magic "life force". Throughout history you know how ignorant we've been and still are. Your claim that dead matter cannot generate sentience is very up to debate. See for instance how you experience vision, feelings, hearing, and a bunch of senses in consciousness. It obviously has a function for the brain, and see how also what you feel or hear in consciousness changes depending on what you've experienced in the past. That is the brain updating depending on what it senses through consciousness, which is a sort of mechanism in the brain which maybe unifies or puts together a bunch of senses so you don't have to sense multiple things separately. During sleep you become unconscious the same as with anesthesia, sometimes more, sometimes less. The point is that you've now seen good arguments why the brain has something to do with consciousness. In the future I think we'll get closer and closer. I bet we'll even know what happens when consciousness knows itself in the brain. Maybe that's the Awakening (outside of DMN deactivation).

[Emanyalpsid]

1 hour ago, Outer said:

Color isn't necessary, can you think of something else? It's so unlikely that everything isn't from material processes. It's not absolute knowledge, but it's likely to be the case.

What if science figures out exactly how consciousness is created by the brain? How will that change the work towards Awakening?

Maybe the Self is what we are when we are human, or any other conscious being for that. In fact I think it's likely it is like that. But that doesn't change much, as long as we're human or conscious we're the Self. You are human now so you are the Self because you are conscious.

Well science has almost figured this out, but they will have trouble calling it consciousness. As consciousness is what you are and not the concept you have of consciousness, so you can not define consciousness for you are consciousness. So scientists might be able to explain how consciousness works, they will not be able to relate it to consciousness. Because to see the results of a scientific experiment, to figure out if something is consciousness, is using consciousness (the seeing) to verify the evidence. So consciousness is looking for consciousness, but it will never find itself, as our perception is always changing, and therefore that what constitutes consciousness also.

So they might be able to find the chemical functioning of consciousness, it will never be consciousness itself. As consciousness is just perception; everything that you experience. The same as that the functioning of a car is not the car itself.

Edited November 12, 2018 by Emanyalpsid

[winterknight]

10 minutes ago, Outer said:

I'm talking about neuroscience, brains, hands, cars, these are consistent. Vague feelings about love or whatever can be seen in the brain anyway.

It was also impossible to figure out how life arises out of material processes, that it must be some magic "life force". Throughout history you know how ignorant we've been and still are. Your claim that dead matter cannot generate sentience is very up to debate. See for instance how you experience vision, feelings, hearing, and a bunch of senses in consciousness. It obviously has a function for the brain, and see how also what you feel or hear in consciousness changes depending on what you've experienced in the past. That is the brain updating depending on what it senses through consciousness, which is a sort of mechanism in the brain which maybe unifies or puts together a bunch of senses so you don't have to sense multiple things separately. During sleep you become unconscious the same as with anesthesia, sometimes more, sometimes less. The point is that you've now seen good arguments why the brain has something to do with consciousness. In the future I think we'll get closer and closer. I bet we'll even know what happens when consciousness knows itself in the brain. Maybe that's the Awakening (outside of DMN deactivation).

Right, but do you understand the idea that if, for example, someone experienced the color you see when you look at grass when they looked at a clear sky, and the color that you see when you look at a clear sky when they looked at the grass, but still called the sky "blue" and the grass "green," that science would never be able to detect this?

Edited November 12, 2018 by winterknight

[Nahm]

@winterknight What a joy, a real truth bath, this thread. Thank you! ❤️

[Emanyalpsid]

25 minutes ago, Outer said:

I'm talking about neuroscience, brains, hands, cars, these are consistent. Vague feelings about love or whatever can be seen in the brain anyway.

It was also impossible to figure out how life arises out of material processes, that it must be some magic "life force". Throughout history you know how ignorant we've been and still are. Your claim that dead matter cannot generate sentience is very up to debate. See for instance how you experience vision, feelings, hearing, and a bunch of senses in consciousness. It obviously has a function for the brain, and see how also what you feel or hear in consciousness changes depending on what you've experienced in the past. That is the brain updating depending on what it senses through consciousness, which is a sort of mechanism in the brain which maybe unifies or puts together a bunch of senses so you don't have to sense multiple things separately. During sleep you become unconscious the same as with anesthesia, sometimes more, sometimes less. The point is that you've now seen good arguments why the brain has something to do with consciousness. In the future I think we'll get closer and closer. I bet we'll even know what happens when consciousness knows itself in the brain. Maybe that's the Awakening (outside of DMN deactivation).

You have an open mind, you are getting there. If consciousness is aware it is generated in the brain, then this has major implications for Awakening. It means you dont want to wake up from a physical illusion to achieve a mental state or consciousness overarching it all, but that you want to wake up from a mental illusion that the physical world is an illusion and that is was somehow created by consciousness.

However, to experience reality you have to be conscious of it, so your experience of reality is dependent upon consciousness, but is reality itself also dependent upon you perceiving it? In other words: will there be a world for us without Outer?

Edited November 12, 2018 by Emanyalpsid

[winterknight]

1 minute ago, Nahm said:

@winterknight What a joy, a real truth bath, this thread. Thank you! ❤️

My pleasure. Glad to be of help.

[Outer]

18 minutes ago, winterknight said:

Right, but I don't see that you've actually addressed or understood my argument. Do you understand the idea that if, for example, someone experienced the color of grass when they looked at a clear sky, and the color of sky when they looked at the grass, but still called the sky "blue" and the grass "green," that science would never be able to detect this?

You don't experience what you perceive. Red, blue and green light enters your eye and retina as three black and white images and then what you experience is the world model where there is color. So what you perceive is the same for everyone (red/blue/green light entering the retina) what the brain does is create color out of that in the world model for clear reasons. Like separating tiger fur from a green bush. That the world models are different is of course the case, for instance a schizophrenic has a different world model than you. That is due to the difference in brains.

Edited November 12, 2018 by Outer

[Outer]

See:

https://spiritualityexplained.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/Model-of-Consciousness-and-Spirituality.pdf

P. 10-36

https://spiritualityexplained.com/

Edited November 12, 2018 by Outer

[Emanyalpsid]

15 minutes ago, Outer said:

You don't experience what you perceive. Red, blue and green light enters your eye and retina as three black and white images and then what you experience is the world model where there is color. So what you perceive is the same for everyone (red/blue/green light entering the retina) what the brain does is create color out of that in the world model for clear reasons. Like separating tiger fur from a green bush. That the world models are different is of course the case, for instance a schizophrenic has a different world model than you. That is due to the difference in brains.

Exactly, the same as with some people who's brain cannot process the lights and only see white, black and shades of grey. A neural condition.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achromatopsia

 

It is all so simple and out there, but by overthinking everything you get lost in your own mind. (This is not directed to you Outer, but for the public)

Edited November 12, 2018 by Emanyalpsid

[i am I AM]

@Outer I didn't read a whole lot of that site (part of the front page) but in my experience, this occurs often in the mind: Thinker and Experiencer vs. Doer

[Outer]

1 minute ago, i am I AM said:

@Outer I didn't read a whole lot of that site (part of the front page) but in my experience, this occurs often in the mind: Thinker and Experiencer vs. Doer

I edited t he post, check the PDF instead, it explains the point at around p.10 and forward, that the brain creates colors out of the 3 different light the retina takes in.

https://spiritualityexplained.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/Model-of-Consciousness-and-Spirituality.pdf

Edited November 12, 2018 by Outer

[Annoynymous]

1 hour ago, winterknight said:

If you really knew what it was trying to tell you, you wouldn't feel like you needed to 'overcome' it. That language suggests that fear is some kind of enemy. It is not. It's a voice within yourself that is trying to help you.

If you listen to it, you should try to address its concerns. Is the fear realistic, for example? Or if it is not realistic, then what is it really about? Maybe it's about something different than what it seems. This is again why I recommend psychodynamic/psychoanalytic therapy. It can help you with this.

If you really know what the fear is telling you, it shouldn't feel like you are "overcoming" it... it should feel like a gentle process... like you are deciding to act after having carefully and compassionately listened to what the fear is about and having tried to address those concerns as best you can. There are many voices, desires, and concerns within ourself. We need to try to listen to them all, let the whole richness of their points of view come into our consciousness.

@wintetknight if fear is not our enemy, why we hear some sayings like 'conquer your fear' in our societies?  

[Emanyalpsid]

9 minutes ago, Outer said:

I edited t he post, check the PDF instead, it explains the point at around p.10 and forward, that the brain creates colors out of the 3 different light the retina takes in.

https://spiritualityexplained.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/Model-of-Consciousness-and-Spirituality.pdf

Well to be exact, the retina only takes in electromagnetic waves reflected by the object you see. The eyes then processes these waves into colours, this however is steered by the brain through neurotransmitters. If the brain is damaged, your sight is damaged.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visible_spectrum

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_eye 

 

Edited November 12, 2018 by Emanyalpsid