Full Enlightenment = End of Rebirth Cycle? | No enlightenment = heaven/hell

[SoonHei]

we all know the pointings of all the religious texts is towards this non-duality which is confused

but investigating that further to find the true-er meaning...

as bible/quran say that do good and then you will get heaven and live there eternally

heaven = enlightenment / end of the Ego/personal self

so once 'someone' gets enlightenment - will 'he/she' now eternally exist in that blissful state after the death of 'their' body?

like when mooji or e.tolle's body physically dies in this world, their now 'awakened soul' will not re-attach to another human baby form or something and have to live out life? will that 'awakened soul' just exist (we cannot say what, but will it not be reborn again? live eternally in heaven that is) ?

 

yes, i know before/after enlightenment - chop wood carry water. but wanted to explore this point.

 

another thing is this, it seems "pointless" in a way that if in my current living life, i get enlightenment and then live out the rest of it in a non-dual state only then to be reborn as another human avatar and live a life of suffering again

it does seem imperative that enlightenment should be the end of the illusory world

 

finally, i also firmly believe that the mystical/magical/fairtale version of heaven is there to be had as well - if an abiding muslim prays 5 times a day, does good, harms no one, lives selflessly (while still in a egoic mind) i.e. does good deeds, isn't bad to anyone etc. then she/he will attain heaven after their 'death'

just like a person experiences their respective beliefs during a psychedelic trip or during a near-death experience - same way upon the death of their physical body, they will experience something in line with their belief - a heaven with flowing rivers of milk, fruits, women, whatever gets you excited

i believe that the ending of the personal self ego is the highest level but living out this life of illusion as a pious, kind person such that your soul/consciousness is not guilty and is at peace would equal to getting the next level of existence within the illusion and that would be heaven ... or hell if one holds that belief and they have done "wrong" according to them for which their soul is not at peace (eternal bad trip after death awaits those) 

[Flow With Life]

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we all know the pointings of all the religious texts is towards this non-duality which is confused

We all know, eh? Okay.

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will 'he/she' now eternally exist in that blissful state

Christianity is literally all about how humans got kicked out of Heaven. Buddhism says that beings born in heaven eventually pass into other realms once their good karma runs out. All that arises due to conditions, is subject to passing away.

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enlightenment should be the end of the illusory world

Only if you understand the causality behind the world. If your enlightenment is based on seeing everything as illusion, that's one-sided. There are plenty of beings who do not see it as illusion. Their experience of non-illusory world is as valid as yours of illusory world. But if you understand the causal mechanisms perpetuating the world, then you can end the world by ending the causes. If you reach enlightenment, and you don't know how you got there... that's a sign it ain't enlightenment.

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ending of the personal self ego is the highest level

So you flip from one side of a binary, "personal ego", to another side of a binary "no personal ego", and this is... enlightenment?

[Enlightenment]

According to Buddha life is suffering and cessation of consciousness is the most blissful thing that can happen to you, and after enlightenment, you will never be reborn again which is good.

[SoonHei]

ummmm

 

in a nutshell, what i am saying is that one's beliefs about what will happen and what kind of world we live in determines where they are headed post "physical body death"

 

also. i dont see anything wrong with ending up in a "reality" within the absolute after this human life where you can live forever in your human/whatever else form, eat, drink, mash, enjoy, party, not get sick, add any other positive perks - eternally

all there is in that state is happiness in form - whats so bad about that? 

its like being rich, unable to die, no diseases, no worry about money, responsibilities or anything - all you got is happiness

 

heaven is attainable - your definition of it and the path that your mind thinks will get you there matters

 

the highest level is to transcend this all via seeing thru the illusion and just abiding as being which is supposedly infinitely better and more blissful

 

those who dont know what sugar tastes like, another known substitute for it will suffice for them 

[Flow With Life]

13 minutes ago, SoonHei said:

in a nutshell, what i am saying is that one's beliefs about what will happen and what kind of world we live in determines where they are headed post "physical body death"

Is that how causality works? Not asking sarcastically. Genuinely curious why you think this.

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also. i dont see anything wrong with ending up in a "reality" within the absolute after this human life where you can live forever in your human/whatever else form, eat, drink, mash, enjoy, party, not get sick, add any other positive perks - eternally

all there is in that state is happiness in form - whats so bad about that? 

its like being rich, unable to die, no diseases, no worry about money, responsibilities or anything - all you got is happiness

All that arises due to conditions, is subject to passing away. If you can be swallowed up by God, he can shit you out.

[Nahm]

@SoonHei

The thought of feeling good is a thought of feeling good... it’s still thinking / efforting though. Whereas bliss is without “feeling good”? You sayin that kinda pointer so to speak?

[Flow With Life]

25 minutes ago, Enlightenment said:

According to Buddha life is suffering and cessation of consciousness is the most blissful thing that can happen to you, and after enlightenment, you will never be reborn again which is good.

Being pedantic here, but Buddha never said "life is suffering". Life is both suffering and happiness. But yes, he did emphasize the suffering part, because he wanted people to escape from the cycle. Happiness is fleeting, not worth holding onto.

Also going to be pedantic again... it is not correct to say "you will never be reborn again"; more accurate to say "birth is ended", which is how he phrased it.

[Enlightenment]

25 minutes ago, Flow With Life said:

Being pedantic here, but Buddha never said "life is suffering". Life is both suffering and happiness. But yes, he did emphasize the suffering part, because he wanted people to escape from the cycle. Happiness is fleeting, not worth holding onto.

Also going to be pedantic again... it is not correct to say "you will never be reborn again"; more accurate to say "birth is ended", which is how he phrased it.

"The basis of Buddhism is a doctrine known as the Four Noble Truths.

The First Truth is that all life is suffering, pain, and misery. The Second Truth is that this suffering is caused by selfish craving and personal desire. The Third Truth is that this selfish craving can be overcome. The Fourth Truth is that the way to overcome this misery is through the Eightfold Path."

"Despite the fourth luminous jhāna’s many virtues, it doesn’t result in the complete absence of craving, or in the perfect equanimity that would entail. However, through experiencing the bliss of equanimity in the fourth jhāna, you begin to understand the possibility of perfect bliss and perfect equanimity."

"Perfect equanimity and the complete cessation of craving are called Nibbāna in Pali (Nirvāna in Sanskrit)."

 

[Flow With Life]

9 minutes ago, Enlightenment said:

"The First Truth is that all life is suffering, pain, and misery."

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This is one of the Big Lies of Buddhism—a claim assumed to be true simply because it is repeated so often—both in popular books and academic books. The phrase “Life is suffering” is supposed to be a summary of the Buddha’s first noble truth, but the first noble truth simply lists the things in life that constitute suffering: “Birth is stressful, aging is stressful, death is stressful; sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair are stressful; association with the unbeloved is stressful, separation from the loved is stressful, not getting what is wanted is stressful. In short, the five clinging-aggregates are stressful.” (Quotation from Samyutta Nikaya, The Grouped Discourses of the Buddha, 56.11)

Life, you’ll notice, isn’t on the list.

-- Thanissaro Bhikku, in "7 Things the Buddha Never Said"

Anyways let's not de-rail this thread any further

Edited September 20, 2018 by Flow With Life

[Hellspeed]

Enlightenment is something else. 

In fact, I might say one can go to immortality in this body/mind, I know I will raise controversy saying this. 

[SoonHei]

@Hellspeed all is possible within the absolute. 

no controversy raised.

just one out of the infinite possibility stated  

 

@Nahm ummm... i am afraid i was/am speaking in duality terms

 

@Flow With Life i am not sure how causality works or what it is TBH

 

but our thoughts/beliefs/words create and define our reality - i was saying that based on this.

[Nahm]

@SoonHei

It’s all thinking. None of this is direct experience. Trust your own experience. Take look at it with a microscope.

You’d have to see what you are to see what death is.