More Clarification on this Topic Please?

[Preetom]

Enlightenment is said to be the ultimate Truth, irreducible, self-evident and nothing can be more obvious. That means if Enlightenment somehow falls on someone's lap who never had an idea such a thing existed, it should be crystal clear what is happening and where he is at. 

But the Enlightenment stories of people like Eckhart Tolle, Ramana Maharshi, Jed Mckenna (just to name a few) kind of say otherwise. These people were generally ignorant about the whole non dual thing. When they got Enlightened either by accident or by the natural introversion of their mind, their initial response was probably not ''YES! I've known the ultimate nature of Reality, there is nothing else to know'' ; but more like '' wtf has happened to me?''. They would later spend years looking for answers to what actually happened to them in various philosophies and when they come across non dual philosophy, then they would confirm that these scriptures are verifying their present experience.

So does it mean that this whole Enlightenment business has to be done like Advaita proposes? Namely putting up the hypothesis of Ultimate Truth, followed by honest philosophical inquiry, followed by the direct realization of the hypothesis? It makes me wonder about the very first few people who got Enlightened. Navigating after Awakening must've been so alien to them.

I know trying to talk about post-enlightenment is barely possible and waste of time in most cases yet I'd appreciate it if some light is put on this matter from one's own experience.

PS: By Enlightenment, I do not mean a glimpse that came and went as if nothing happened but a permanent shift after which there is no going back. I mean the point where the 'victim's' whole life turned upside down in some sense.

@Leo Gura @Shanmugam @Saumaya @Azrael @cetus56 and every other Enlightened fella here I forgot to tag

 

Edited September 4, 2018 by Preetom

[Leo Gura]

@Preetom

It's radical no matter what.

Even if you watched all my videos and read all the books and you think you understand it, when it finally hits you, it will be so utterly radical, you will not believe it and your entire life will collapse and you will go, "WTF?????? NO WAY! NO WAY! NO WAY! OH MY FUCKING GOD! This cannot be true! It's too RADICAL!!! Have I gone insane??? Please, someone tell me I'm not insane. Oh, fuck, there is no one who can help me. I'm all alone..."

It is a total mindfuck beyond anything you can imagine. And there is no way to escape the mindfuck of it. So learn to love getting skullfucked by God.

[Preetom]

@Leo Gura

I think I've found a better way to frame the question.

Can conscious Enlightenment happen before the development of an ego? 

There seems to be no case of Enlightenment right from the birth. It seems that every conscious being must go through a series of conditioning, develop an ego and then comes Enlightenment.

[MarkusSweden]

@Preetom You forgot to tag me. 

People don't take my enlightenment seriously, that hurts my ego.  

Edited September 4, 2018 by MarkusSweden

[Leo Gura]

@Preetom Enlightenment is a dissolution of ego. If there is no ego to begin with, enlightenment is not needed.

This is why you shouldn't try to teach nonduality to your cat.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it

[Rilles]

Cats are natural Arhats, they dont need any teaching, to be honest they could probably teach us alot about mindfulness.  

[Preetom]

3 hours ago, MarkusSweden said:

@Preetom You forgot to tag me. 

People don't take my enlightenment seriously, that hurts my ego.  

Tough life, right? 

Anyway thanks for the answers so far guys 

[SoonHei]

5 hours ago, MarkusSweden said:

@Preetom You forgot to tag me. 

People don't take my enlightenment seriously, that hurts my ego.  

LOL 

[Nahm]

@Preetom Have you witnessed a miracle?

[Preetom]

23 minutes ago, Nahm said:

@Preetom Have you witnessed a miracle?

I honestly don't know what a miracle means conventionally. I feel that it's totally dependent on the seer and how you look. 

From a certain perspective, everything is a miracle. From another, everything is pale and mundane.

But if I am to answer if I ever experienced something that completely knocked my socks off, shifted the trajectory of my life in one major epiphany in an instant, then I would have to say no; I haven't come across such an experience.

[Nahm]

@Preetom What if all there is, is a miracle?

[Preetom]

3 minutes ago, Nahm said:

@Preetom What if all there is, is a miracle?

It very well could be depending on how the seer sees and interprets.

[Nahm]

@Preetom What is a miracle?

[Preetom]

1 minute ago, Nahm said:

@Preetom What is a miracle?

En event whose cause cannot be traced or understood in conventional sense.

[cetus]

6 hours ago, Preetom said:

It seems that every conscious being must go through a series of conditioning, develop an ego and then comes Enlightenment.

@Preetom This is "being" fully manifesting. The sleeper must awaken. Conscionseness awakens unto itself through the illusion of the sleeper. Why it happens this way is beyond me. But just as a hunch this is what feels right- consciousness has no awareness of itself so through this process of awakening it becomes aware of itself indirectly through the enlightened being. This could be why enlightened ppl sometimes feel as if they have one foot in each world. On foot is aware of pure conscionseness as being everything and one foot walks in the world separateness. And only through that contrast can conscionseness be fully realized.

[Forestluv]

You seem to be using "enlightenment" as if it is a process or a destination. Or, that enlightenment is some "thing".

For me, direct experiences into what IS, blow away all conceptual constructs. Of course, my mind wants to make sense of the experience - yet the actual experience is waaay beyond my mental constructs. At times, it makes no rational sense. It is insane. 

Rather than pursuing rational answers to your questions for decades (As I did), I would turn the table and ask: "From what/where are these questions arising?". "From what/where is the seeking energy arising?".

For my stage of development, I see ego/self/personality WITHIN consciousness.

[Azrael]

You've mixed a few things up here.

On 3.9.2018 at 6:34 PM, Preetom said:

Enlightenment is said to be the ultimate Truth, irreducible, self-evident and nothing can be more obvious. That means if Enlightenment somehow falls on someone's lap who never had an idea such a thing existed, it should be crystal clear what is happening and where he is at.

Not really, no. Took me personally 2 weeks until I noticed that something changed, for example. (Not because the change was so "little" but because it was so fundamental that I needed two weeks to find the sanity to think straight about it.) And just by listing the symptoms of what had changed I figured it must be enlightenment. And I had extensive conceptual knowledge about enlightenment. So you would think that I knew "what to expect". Let me tell you, you will not know what hits you. That's why I tend to dislike spirituality these days, because it's too far away from the actual thing. Not talking about it might be a better way to approach it. Just sit or ask yourself "who am I" and wait.

On 3.9.2018 at 6:34 PM, Preetom said:

But the Enlightenment stories of people like Eckhart Tolle, Ramana Maharshi, Jed Mckenna (just to name a few) kind of say otherwise. These people were generally ignorant about the whole non dual thing. When they got Enlightened either by accident or by the natural introversion of their mind, their initial response was probably not ''YES! I've known the ultimate nature of Reality, there is nothing else to know'' ; but more like '' wtf has happened to me?''. They would later spend years looking for answers to what actually happened to them in various philosophies and when they come across non dual philosophy, then they would confirm that these scriptures are verifying their present experience.

That's because enlightenment is such physiological change in your whole mind-body system, that you are confused in the beginning. It takes months and years to integrate what really happened. And even then, you just figured out "who you are". That's by far the easiest thing to find out when it comes to contemplation. Because you are it. You just have to find "you". Try contemplating "what is another" or "what is reality". That's a completely different thing to find out. 

Finding out "who you are" is the entrance to a lot more enlightenments that are way harder to achieve. That's why so many spiritual teachers talk about different things and confuse ppl alot. That's why you shouldn't talk about it. Peter Ralston and Eckhart Tolle are both enlightened, but probably have a completely different way of perceiving the world because the depth of their enlightenment and achievement varies a lot.

On 3.9.2018 at 6:34 PM, Preetom said:

So does it mean that this whole Enlightenment business has to be done like Advaita proposes? Namely putting up the hypothesis of Ultimate Truth, followed by honest philosophical inquiry, followed by the direct realization of the hypothesis? It makes me wonder about the very first few people who got Enlightened. Navigating after Awakening must've been so alien to them.

That's one way, probably. I think I could talk someone into enlightenment that would be willing to give up everything he or she knows about this world. The problem is, most people have some conceptual walls they don't want to give up, that's why this method either needs a lot of time or doesn't work with people.

My best advice on getting enlightened is this: Figure out how you bullshit yourself, which lies you tell yourself, which unproven assumptions you take as real. Write all of this down and then melt every one away by contemplating it. Write down the walls that keep your ego in place, and then get rid of the walls. And then just sit and wait until it hits you.

And then wait 5 years before you write your first book.

Cheers, Az

[Haumea2018]

There's a good question in the OP.

Remember that a lot of these people got enlightened before the Internet.

These days it's trivial to get this information online.  So the whole process is (at least in some aspects) accelerated.

Also, it takes time to integrate enlightenment.  You can reach Unity Consciousness but Sahaja takes at least half a year to a year, and in the past it's taken many years.

When you reach Sahaja, it's unmistakeable, but Unity Consciousness is a stage of a lot of processing and hazy.

 

Edited September 9, 2018 by Haumea2018

[Misagh]

It's funny because despite all that is said about how radical enlightenment is (and yes it is radical), I've never felt that way. I never had a moment when I freaked out about the Truth. It was more like, "Oh okay so that's what it is. Yes it has always been the only Truth."

What I mean is that there was never a moment of great shock like many people said there would be. Sure it still came to me in a snap, but there was no great mindfuck accompanied with it. 

I think its because prior to getting self-realized I already had a pretty clear idea of how its going to be through intense work with imagination. 

Also this is gold: "This is why you shouldn't try to teach nonduality to your cat." @Leo Gura

Edited September 9, 2018 by Misagh

[Haumea2018]

Yeah, it's not necessarily a huge shock (especially in the context of a gradual awakening journey, since you're not going 0 to 60 in a second), but you do know when you've reached it pretty quickly.

Actually it took me a few days to realize I had reached it, because it deepened during those few days.

Really, although I recognized it immediately I had to make sure it wasn't some transitory state.

Edited September 9, 2018 by Haumea2018