The limits of liberal Zen and Don’t underestimate the trap of rationality

[kieranperez]

Just got back from the San Francisco Zen Center that I live a couple blocks from and a group of us after a sit went to dinner. I was discussing some of my recent insights and one guy sitting across from me starts interjecting how consciousness doesn’t exist and how we can’t know what reality is and all this. I tried pointing out that those were just assumptions and all that but of course, that just made it seem that I’m preaching more theories which comes off as though I’m contradicting myself. This guys has been “practicing zen” for quite some time now and I think this just goes to show just how much of a trap mental masterbation is and also just how hard spirituality can be to teach to people in a non intensive way. I can really see the value now of jut how important having a masterful enlightened teacher can be for certain people that get stuck thinking like this who can cut these egoic shananigans. Lastly, I really gained an appreciation of just how hard it’s gotta be for @Leo Gura trying to communicate these insights through such an indirect medium like YouTube and from language alone and try to get people to grasp that what he’s saying is not to be taken on faith or denied by clinging to your comfortable certainty. So yeah, hats off to you man. 

Edited July 11, 2018 by kieranperez

[tsuki]

From my perspective, the only meaningful way to talk about consciousness is to say what it is not. 
There is no way do describe it positively.
To say that 'it is a universal substance of reality' is to produce a sound that seems like a sentence but contains no information about it.

To cling to a positive description of consciousness is a misunderstanding.
To try to understand it via symbolic manipulation of such descriptions is a waste of life.
 

Edited July 11, 2018 by tsuki

[Leo Gura]

"Consciousness" is a tricky word. People use it to mean different things. You have to make sure you guys are talking about the same thing.

[Samra]

@kieranperez must have been frustrating. But how do you know he is wrong and you are right? How do you know if either of you are right? Maybe that's not the point. We all trying to point to something. And you can use different fingers to point, or a pencil.  The point is not pointer. It's the moon.

[Guest Quanty]

Don't worry, in any religion of today's era, people are indoctrinated in the right-hand path/rationale.

Even in Zen. Even if they use spiritual terminology. In other words, there is not much difference between a common christian/hindu/budhist/islamist etc., similar vibratory levels, different images about the same notions. But in all of them without exception, one can find the path to liberation. 

 

[cirkussmile]

Since you didn’t agree he’s probably thinking something similar about you ?

But yes. As my teacher said: The world is full of idiots!