Leo Gura

Spiral Dynamics Stage Yellow Examples Mega-Thread

1,196 posts in this topic

4 hours ago, Cudin said:

Do you guys honestly think that there might be a tier-2 person that is Libertarian, for instance?

See my two long posts on page 14 of this thread. A tier 2 person is more likely to be a market liberal than not. Economically literate non-statism is the political manifestation of stage yellow. The emergent thinking structures employed by market liberals are precisely what SD describes about yellow. Promlem is, that people don't comprehend emergent thinking until they posess it, so greens are not aware of anything beyond green. They mistake yellow (libertarianism) for a flavor of orange, since it looks a lot like it if you are blind to emergent processes. They project their green pre-emergent thinking structures into the later stages, thinking that yellow is some sort of hyper-green continuation of left-wing beliefs about ecology and socialism. If that were the case, why is it so hard for greens to get there?

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On 9/8/2018 at 11:59 AM, Sockrattes said:

@Taylor04

I think you are right about most post here. Many of them are orange and green. Yes.

Less than 1% of the world's population is yellow-centered. I'd say less than 2% of the active forum members are Yellow-centered. Yet, a fair amount a green-centered with substantial yellow. (I consider myself green-centered and learning yellow). 

I'd say most active forum members are Orange-centered and there is substantial Blue. A lot of members live in Blue-centered countries.

Those centered in Tier 1 still see SD as a hierarchy of levels. The traditional views of hierarchies is that higher is better. This can lead to competition, debates and views of superiority and inferiority. I'm still Tier 1 centered and I need to be mindful that the mission of the forum is not to win debates against other SD levels. Rather, the mission is that the average conscious level of the forum is raised. 

Because there are so few Yellow-centered people, yellow-level videos are much rarer than Tier 1 level videos. And it's much easier for the forum to identify Blue, Orange and Green level videos. Notice how in those mega-threads there is generally a forum consensus on the consciousness level of Tier 1 videos. Yet, yellow is more difficult for us to identify because it is a stretch for us. That's why there is confusion on the mega-thread and discussion about whether the video is really at a yellow level.

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 I honestly think that it's quite deluded to think that stage yellow is libertarian. It is most likely free of most ideologies. Libertarianism is just too naive and doesn't recognize the spiral. Green people think it's orange precisely because it is. Of course, yellow people recognize that the free market capitalism is just one step on the evolution os mankind, but there will be a time that it will have mutate to a superior way of societal organization. The competition model of growth just becomes inefficient with time, and it also seems to be very naive regarding the fact that we live in a planet with limited resources, but our economic system demands infinite growth.

Even the recognition that the political game is pretty much useless - It's just an ego power game, doesn't come near libertarians. The true revolution can only happen from within each living being. True freedom has nothing to do with economical freedom. 

 

 

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Well, appreciate your own uni-perspectivalness in this. What should we expect green to think about yellow? Memes (being analogies for genes) aim to preserve and spread themselves. So we can expect the green meme to put up any barrier it can to keep its members from properly understanding yellow and moving towards it. We can expect greens to not think very highly of yellow and even disregard it as something else. Also, being tier 1, we should expect greens to not understand the emergent argument of yellow, which is precisely what we find in the green mainstreams miscomprehension of market forces. Greens hate libertarianism, so they cant imagine that it is the manifestation of a higher stage. That is one of the reasons why it is so difficult to move up from green to yellow. (Much like orange minds cant imagine that the green stage is something they should go towards. I happen to think that while whole societies move through these stages, individuals cant move up much. The kids of highly green parents may become yellow. This is a multi-generational thing, we cant move up by meditating enough.)

The color yellow has even long been associated with libertarianism and anarcho-capitalism. These color analogies work very well. Its very light, almost see-through, symbolizing laissez faire. And yellow looks orange if you are wearing green-tinted glasses. Green, being very dark (symbolizing its authoritarianism), would either not be able to see yellow at all because it is too light (green thinks yellow doesnt want to do stuff, like feeding the poor, that yellow employs emergent properties for, which green doesnt understand yet) or see it as orange. Trying to explain emergence to a green is like trying to explain "being on land" to a fish, it doesnt understand what being out of the water is because the assumption of water is so deep, it doesnt recognize it as an assumption.

The other view (by many on this forum, including the guru) is that yellow is essentially a more meditated version of green, fully compatible with all it's wacky tier 1 beliefs (that have a very bad historical track record of being right). Should we really expect a tier 1 meme to have it all figured out, and be right about the entire spiral? Hardly.

If you think libertarianism is naive and purely competitive, then you speak like someone who has only heard green caricatures of libertarianism. Maybe you should learn about it, rather than just discarding it from a green point of view. Libertarians have been saying their ideology isnt really about uncaring competition for ages. Cooperative effects through selfish intentions; the effect is emergent, therefore tier 1 is blind to it. Indeed, learning to understand systemic market forces is one of the best training grounds for accessing the yellow stage consciousness out there. Sadly, greens are rarely drawn to it, because their green thought leaders told them "thats all orange selfishness, nothing to see there".

While libertarianism is a step towards freedom of ideology, they're less attached to their beliefs than a tier 1 is to his beliefs, (the libertarians you'd see on TV are often too identified with ideology). But yellow is only a step in that direction. More growth in that direction happens in later stages (I assume). But first we have to be free and rich to afford that luxury. These stages follow societal need. Possibly free markets have to mutate to something superior at some point, but that doesnt take away from the need to move towards them now, as a transition stage. I'm not saying that yellow is perfect or that all of tier 2 will be overtly free market. But most green beliefs have to go away as humanity moves to tier 2. Later stages will likely be more free of ideology, but we cant afford that yet in a world full of backwards reactionaries. Yellow is not there yet. (It is the beige of tier 2, a initiation phase.)

Libertarians do not propose a "competition model of growth", they propose a cooperative model, but the effect is emergent and therefore not understood by tier 1. Resources are limited, but not finite. That they should be finite is a green superstition that higher stages do away with. All empirical evidence suggests that resources are replenishable, which is why green predictions of an end to growth keep being refuted by history over and over again. High growth until everyone on earth is rich enough is easily possible. (Unless greens succeed at keeping us poor.)

The recognition that the political game is just an ego power game is widely had in ancap circles, and most dont care about R vs. D. You are just more likely to see the few who do care on TV. And true freedom absolutely depends on economic freedom. We only have time to meditate if we are rich. We only have social progress, like tolerance of gays, as an emergent side-effect of economic progress. Activists follow progress, not the other way around. Greens can only worry about the environment because orange made them rich enough to afford the luxury. Environmental protection is a form of capital consumption that depends on economic productivity. It happens naturally as society gets rich,  o environmental statism needed. (Yes, by slowing down growth, environmentalists are harming the environment.) How come places like China always get these green ideas as they implement markets and move out of poverty? Must just be a coincidence!

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11 hours ago, Serotoninluv said:

Less than 1% of the world's population is yellow-centered. I'd say less than 2% of the active forum members are Yellow-centered. Yet, a fair amount a green-centered with substantial yellow. (I consider myself green-centered and learning yellow). 

I'd say most active forum members are Orange-centered and there is substantial Blue. A lot of members live in Blue-centered countries.

 

These are old numbers. Yellow is 5% or even close to 10% by now, as Ken Wilber said. Although on this forum most people are orange-green. Green is the dominant cultural meme of our day, with at least 70% of the power. Although greens, wearing green-tinted glasses, dont see the green around them, and think the blue and orange residuals are more powerful than they are.

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On 21/9/2018 at 9:48 PM, Serotoninluv said:

Less than 1% of the world's population is yellow-centered. I'd say less than 2% of the active forum members are Yellow-centered. Yet, a fair amount a green-centered with substantial yellow. (I consider myself green-centered and learning yellow). 

I'd say most active forum members are Orange-centered and there is substantial Blue. A lot of members live in Blue-centered countries.

Those centered in Tier 1 still see SD as a hierarchy of levels. The traditional views of hierarchies is that higher is better. This can lead to competition, debates and views of superiority and inferiority. I'm still Tier 1 centered and I need to be mindful that the mission of the forum is not to win debates against other SD levels. Rather, the mission is that the average conscious level of the forum is raised. 

Because there are so few Yellow-centered people, yellow-level videos are much rarer than Tier 1 level videos. And it's much easier for the forum to identify Blue, Orange and Green level videos. Notice how in those mega-threads there is generally a forum consensus on the consciousness level of Tier 1 videos. Yet, yellow is more difficult for us to identify because it is a stretch for us. That's why there is confusion on the mega-thread and discussion about whether the video is really at a yellow level.

I think people from this forum is mostly yellow, I can not imagine an Orange person listening Leo's videos every week. I think must of us here are Yellow with Orange and Green influence.

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@Taylor04

"Green want's more taxes"

 

This is everything i need to know to realise, that your view on green is still an orange one. You haven't even integrated green yet. Therefore you shouldn't try to chatter up orange-rothbardian-ideology the spiral ladder. This won't work, because for everyone who is or was at least in green, this is obvious.

Edited by Sockrattes

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The key word here is "detachment." When used to self-reflect/self-inquire, it's to help in understanding a successful relationship/building successful relationships, life itself, and the deepest truth(s).

 

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Great modern day mathematician Edward Frankel .

Shows that stage Yellow is very spiritual, and when you take mathematics to the limit, you have a small gimps of Infinity.

@Leo Gura Leo, check him out.
 

 

Edited by Arthur
wanted to tag Leo

"Beyond fear, destiny awaits" - Dune

 

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On 28. 08. 2018. at 3:32 AM, Serotoninluv said:

This seems like orange to me. The intention is personal development to attain personal goals.

Have you watched some of his other videos and seen his work? I think he's yellow but aiming at orange audience to deliver this to a wider audience, no?

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This goes for any type of relationships, including intimate relationships. To me, he forgot to mention that a person could develop from a root to trunk. That's when a person is very independent, well-rounded, and is capable of solving many types of problems effectively for himself/herself and his/her loved ones, esp in very challenging times.

 

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I think this is really good content. Do you think this guy has passed green? 
 

 

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On 9/24/2018 at 0:46 PM, Sockrattes said:

@Taylor04

"Green want's more taxes"

 

This is everything i need to know to realise, that your view on green is still an orange one. You haven't even integrated green yet. Therefore you shouldn't try to chatter up orange-rothbardian-ideology the spiral ladder. This won't work, because for everyone who is or was at least in green, this is obvious.

That is is all you need to realize that I dont agree with green assumptions, not that I must be orange. Keep in mind that memes next to each others tend to disagree with each others. That I dont share green assumptions just means I am one of the warm colors. So my disagreement with green can come from below or above. I might be above, and a you as a green might just not properly conceptualize what's above you. I might already have incorporated some healthy green aspects and moved past it.

You are somewhat right that being green-phobic is a bit unintegrated. That is something I have to work on. But you are wrong in thinking that I have to agree with the green perspective to have integrated green into my thinking. I incorporated plenty of the underlying assumptions of healthy green, such as the notion that material accumulation is not the source of happiness, and I am an (authentic) egalitarian. But I do not have to agree with all th ideas of mean green to be integrative. Mean green is actually an obstruction to moving to tier two.

One doesnt have to be completely neutral about all memes to posess some yellow. Integrativeness means mixing different tier one memes, but you can still have your heart in one of them. I suspect it evens out more later, but one can be a bit polar. That I dont like some aspects of (mean) green doesnt mean I couldnt be integrative. You imply that one cant be yellow without agreeing with the core of green. The irony in that is that the core of green is green monoperspectivalness, i.e. that green beliefs are reality and that therefore tier two continues with a green mentality and political beliefs. The book Spiral Dynamics specifically warns of this "green talking turquoise" type. They are unwilling to accept that green ends, that they have to change, so they project greenness onto the rest of the spiral.

Whatever yellow truly is, green is a low consciousness meme and we can expect it to react violently against it. This is precisely the reaction greens to show against voluntarist ideology, which greens perceive to be orange. Do you really think the future of humanity on tier two is to rely on authoritarian green solutions? Nah. Its ugly. Green authoritarianism is on its way out, it hasnt been the leading edge for decades. In its fight for survival, you can expect the green meme to throw any barrier in its members path to keep them from moving up to yellow, including disregarding post-green as orange and projecting green onto the later tiers.

Another hint is that Rothbardian liberalism fits with yellow chronologically. It is not classical liberalism, even though many misidentify it as such. Classical liberals were orange. Rothbardian anarchism was only formulated in the seventies and only got big this century. It fits with when yellow is supposed to emerge, and with the proportion of the population being of that bent. The world has been moving steadily in this direction, fitting with a predicted growth of yellow. Liberalism (19th century) was followed by collectivism (20th century) and is now followed by liberalism (21st century). Do you see the oscillation? Like in the spiral.

And finally I would ask why you think yellow is a new tier if nothing changes. Why should it be so hard for greens to become yellow? Does spiral dynamics agree with your view that yellow is compatible with green beliefs, that they have to give nothing up, make no difficult admissions, and just have to be a bit more spiritual to be turquoise? No. What you green-wanting-to-be-tier-two people all misunderstand is that spiral dynamics is not about spirituality. They are separate channels, much like your work and private life are separate areas of performance. You can be good at one and bad at the other. Tier two is not green politics plus spirituality. You can be spiritual on all stages. Yellow is a new tier precisely because greens dont want to admit that what they currently believe is being overturned and what they hate the most is the next stage. Of course greens dont want to be replaced by their political enemies. Should we expect them to like yellow? Spiral Dynamics says green reacts violently to tier two. Yet you think somehow the disagreements between green and yellow are less than the disagreements between orange and green? The hint on who is right in this entire argument is: Whatever yellow is, greens will not like it.

Edited by Taylor04

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To sum it up, what the greens in this thread are saying is that green beliefs are objectively true. That the green reality is reality. And that the other views of reality are wrong. In their view, the spiral works like this: there are those who dont understand the green reality yet (stage 1 to 5), they get to have their views but they are wrong about reality, then there's green which somehow got it all right despite being low level consciousness, and then theres all the stages after green that agree with green beliefs, such as warmism and socialism, and just add spirituality to it. There could be no stronger expression of having one perspective, of monoperspectivalness, than to equate ones perspective with reality, and then fancying oneself "integrative" because all the stuff one is dogmatic about is reality and therefore it is ok to objectively believe in it. After all, one mixes a few ideas from different sources. But as long as they all are compatible with green, thats not "integrative". This is even worse than traditional religion, where a similarly narrow belief is held to be true, but at least the believer knows his faith is a faith.

As Ken Wilber writes, spiral dynamics is not about spirituality. The spiral and spirituality are separate channels of development much like work life and private life are separate areas of performance. You can be good at one and bad at the other. You can be spiritual on all stages, its just more visible in greens who are the first to have the luxury to obsess about it, thanks to orange having created all that wealth for them. (But to get anywhere with it, it is best to be on the leading edge of the spiral. That is why so many eastern philosophy dedicated greens havent been getting many results since the seventies, green is not leading edge any more.) The spiral is your underlying heuristics penchant, your energy-saving mental shortcut for arriving at your beliefs. The book Spiral Dynamics never describes the tier two memes as overtly spiritual, and it would be odd to read that into it. How likely is it that with every stage change politcal beliefs change, but somehow yellow has exactly the same beliefs as green? But thats what greens are saying! (Name something that you think green and yellow disagree about.) The greens then insert spirituality as a replacement, and pretend tier two is about that. This is not the case. Political stances change, greens just dont like it. The book practically describes yellow as free market, and newer writings make it more clear. I suggest that all tier two memes are anti-authoritarian, which is the future of humanity.

Edited by Taylor04

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'I suggest that all tier two memes are anti-authoritarian, which is the future of humanity.'

It may be worth noting that with voluntarism (the idea that all human interactions should be voluntary/free of coercion) and free market anarchism (the consistent application of the non aggression principle) you are welcome to have any social, religious and economic structure you desire as long as you don't initiate force on other people to get them to do it.

This would include green style feminist communes, cooperatives, voluntary socialism, eco communes, religious based communities, ranches, cults, tribes whatever, the whole philosophy is 'we don't know which perspective is best so do whatever you like: just don't initiate force on anyone else, if you do the individuals involved may find non coercive and innovative means of dispute resolution, gaining restitution, negotiation, communication or ostracism'.

I see many voluntarists who promote eco conscious and innovative ways of living such as seasteading or permaculture homesteading too.

Edited by In Sterquiliniis

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