Spiral dynamics stages in women, stage orange and relationships, etc.

[Sparkist]

37 minutes ago, fireworld said:

What's wrong with pickup even if it may at times be shallow?

Her model of attraction and her subjective experience is interesting as it affirms many of the things that pickup teaches already.

I ask all my female friends about it to gain a deeper understanding of women. I even ask girlfriends about their experiences so I can be a better boyfriend. 

So what? Not everyone needs to be after a deep meaningful relationship in order to not be bad, what's wrong with a fling? 

Stop moralising.

I do pickup and have since 2007.

You're assuming way too much here. 

I never said everyone needs to be after a deep meaningful relationship in order not to be bad. There is nothing wrong with a fling. However, if a man is masquerading as a knight in shining armour in order to get a cheap lay, then it's deception. If you are genuinely interested in what women are looking for in a guy (outside the realms of pumping and dumping), little hint: it's unlikely to be this ^ 

Stop moralising? Stop acting like it's a harmless act of mutual benefit. If you wanted to have sex purely for the sex, you could quite easily find a like-minded woman. We don't all want relationships, some of us want casual sex. Imagine that!! You wouldn't have to charm her out of her knickers with falsehoods. Or perhaps it's the deception which actually turns you on. Considered that?

Congratulations on wanting to be a better boyfriend and for genuinely wanting to know more about women for their improved experience of you, though. 

I guess I shouldn't be surprised that you tell me not to moralise considering you've spent the last 11 years lying to most of the women you've had sex with.

 

Edited July 2, 2018 by Sparkist

[fireworld]

40 minutes ago, Sparkist said:

You're assuming way too much here. 

I never said everyone needs to be after a deep meaningful relationship in order not to be bad. There is nothing wrong with a fling. However, if a man is masquerading as a knight in shining armour in order to get a cheap lay, then it's deception. If you are genuinely interested in what women are looking for in a guy (outside the realms of pumping and dumping), little hint: it's unlikely to be this ^ 

Stop moralising? Stop acting like it's a harmless act of mutual benefit. If you wanted to have sex purely for the sex, you could quite easily find a like-minded woman. We don't all want relationships, some of us want casual sex. Imagine that!! You wouldn't have to charm her out of her knickers with falsehoods. Or perhaps it's the deception which actually turns you on. Considered that?

Congratulations on wanting to be a better boyfriend and for genuinely wanting to know more about women for their improved experience of you, though. 

I guess I shouldn't be surprised that you tell me not to moralise considering you've spent the last 11 years lying to most of the women you've had sex with.

 

Wow, whats with the attacks?

Who said that pickup is about masquerading as a knight in shining armour in order to get a cheap lay? Thats your assumption.

Stop acting like its a harmless act of mutual benefit? Thats moralising.

I do know that women want casual sex, thats not surprising at all? Who said that we try to charm them out of their knickers with falsehoods?

You dont understand pickup in the slightest.

The idea of pickup is the idea that you learn about how women experience you as a man. And that when you find a woman that you like that you can create an enjoyable experience for her. Not to mislead her or to take advantage of her.

If you do take advantage of women or what have you, you are ofcourse in the wrong. But you started the topic basically warning Emerald that i am using the conversation that we are having as a sneaky way to use it to manipulate women? That's where you are wrong.

The comment about me being a liar, shows how disgusting you are.

Edited July 2, 2018 by fireworld

[Elisabeth]

@fireworld The problem with pushing another persons attraction buttons without actually being up for a deep relationship is that it fucking hurts to end up in a state of unreciprocated longing for intimacy. I hurts to be after an intimate relationship and find out the other person is just up for a fling. It feels like a betrayal - and worse if you happen to find out only after sex. (Blah, I'm feeling dirty just immagining.) That's why we hate players. Recall the times when you "fell in love", like, deeply, and it was one-sided. Have you had these? They could give you some empathy.

Anyway, for the sake of you and others gathering knowledge, +1 on pretty much everything Emerald wrote (except perhaps my attractions are slightly less sudden). She found really good words about the emotional sensitivity + traits (like equanimity) we admire being the most attractive. Excellent. 

Also, consider this: The research you cite is a statistics. It means it will work best for your blue-orange median. Yet if you shoot higher women's tastes will be different. I for myself know that I'm totally done with blue-orange guys... but I'm totally turned on by self-aware teachers of pretty much any art  (though I would only approach someone who seems within reach). Maybe women are in fact attracted to (self-)mastery. Maybe a woman will not be attracted to someone who's lower on the spiral than her.  

[fireworld]

7 minutes ago, Sea said:

If you think pickup is about lying to women that you want a relationship with them in order to get one night stands, then you must not have looked into pickup much. The manipulations in pickup aren't that blatant.

I think there's a lot of caricatures of orange and of pickup in this thread. I'm not saying pickup is perfect but just watching two or three RSD videos will show you there's much more to it than people think. This stereotype of some robotic, nerdy guy learning lines that will magically get women attracted to him is absurd, yet women seem to think this is what pickup is about. I think this comes from the ads for pickup products because guys actually wish this was possible, so presenting it in this way draws them in. However, the teachings of RSD are actually about transforming yourself to become the guy who can let go of their insecurities, have fun and be "present in the moment". The typical "orange" guy's robotic approach to dating is something RSD regularly make fun of because it obviously doesn't work.

RSD can be a force for good, but in many ways they are too Orange especially now since they are bleeding money. I personally don't like RSD very much. 

[Elisabeth]

2 hours ago, Key Elements said:

@Elisabeth To me, I feel that one of the major things missing is that many ppl in a stage orange society forgot to pass through stage blue. Stage blue has to do with setting boundaries. I totally agree that too much blue boundaries is unhealthy, but I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about healthy boundaries. If you look at different religions and cultures across the world at the stage blue level, they all have their own types of boundaries. The thing is, which boundaries do you want to keep and not want to change in a relationship? This is something for the individual to contemplate on.

@Key Elements Interesting, this idea about skipping stages. With blue, I think many people passed through blue just fine in their school years. Yet maybe they haven't integrated it with orange when they go on. 

I haven't noticed people who skipped blue, but I've noticed a friend of mine who was born into a very green hippie family and consequently has all those green values but didn't manage to integrate orange. 

On boundaries ... what do you mean? I think personal boundaries are an orange development. Like, blue gives you external boundaries "you are not allowed to do this" (it's wrong, shame on you). Orange does away with it, but as the individual is defining her/himself, she has to put up these guidelines of "if this happens, I will do that". And then green ... maybe that's what you mean. Green may be tempted to do away with all boundaries (the blue ones that define the shape of the relationship and even the orange ones that may be seen as barriers between me and the other person). But that's not workable. You have to choose some defining lines on what is allowed and what isn't and how much you can merge with other people too. Is that what you mean?

[fireworld]

2 minutes ago, Elisabeth said:

@fireworld The problem with pushing another persons attraction buttons without actually being up for a deep relationship is that it fucking hurts to end up in a state of unreciprocated longing for intimacy. I hurts to be after an intimate relationship and find out the other person is just up for a fling. It feels like a betrayal - and worse if you happen to find out only after sex. (Blah, I'm feeling dirty just immagining.) That's why we hate players. Recall the times when you "fell in love", like, deeply, and it was one-sided. Have you had these? They could give you some empathy.

Anyway, for the sake of you and others gathering knowledge, +1 on pretty much everything Emerald wrote (except perhaps my attractions are slightly less sudden). She found really good words about the emotional sensitivity + traits (like equanimity) we admire being the most attractive. Excellent. 

Also, consider this: The research you cite is a statistics. It means it will work best for your blue-orange median. Yet if you shoot higher women's tastes will be different. I for myself know that I'm totally done with blue-orange guys... but I'm totally turned on by self-aware teachers of pretty much any art  (though I would only approach someone who seems within reach). Maybe women are in fact attracted to (self-)mastery. Maybe a woman will not be attracted to someone who's lower on the spiral than her.  

The attacks on pickup and on me for whatever reason is a deep misunderstanding. 

Pickup can be a tool for evil thats true, but to assume that everyone who uses pickup is evil is just as insane as saying that everyone that practices martial arts is a violent man in the making.

I don't string women along like a sadistic freak while they are experiencing that one sided longing for intimacy, I don't even let it get to the point where that could even happen. That extremely powerful feeling of wanting to be in a relationship and have that person meet you half way is EXACTLY why many people learn about pickup.

There is nothing more amazing to me than when you can meet someone whom you like and they like you back, and then use your understanding and love for her to make her feel even more amazing. That creates a wonderful beginning to your relationship and the both of you can feel a great connection.

Thats what pickup is to me, I want to be the best man I could ever be for my woman, and this means that I have to learn about her and how she sees the world. 

And you are right, Emerald is amazing haha  

[fireworld]

7 hours ago, Emerald said:

I guess it all depends on his tone and body posture when he says it, and if it feel appropriate for the situation. It's more of having acuity for what's appropriate in a given situation. Also, if it feels contrived in any way or too cinematic or performed; it'll make me feel super awkward. Like, I'll be super aware and go into my head like, 'I think he's in his head right now. Trying to crack the code.' It tells me he's not really being present and isn't really secure in just being a human with me. Plus, it steals me out of the present too.

Now, if I'm super attracted to him, I will love everything that he's saying to me, just because it's him that's saying it. The guy could probably say some Pinky from Pinky and the Brain level stuff, and I would find it just charming. But if my attraction is just developing, that might feel like a bit too much pressure. But these words won't make me more attracted unless I'm already very attracted. 

But I get an intuitive sense for if a man is capable of intimacy. It's about how he carries himself and how he acts and speaks. But it is just a projection at first too. But his affectations will be a pretty good indicator if he feels secure enough in himself to be intimate with someone else. Basically, if a guy seems like he has a chip on his shoulder, it'll clue me into some potential barriers to intimacy. 

Also, niceness is very non-active. It's just a very normal and general mode of behavior. Kind of like a clerk at a grocery store. They can be nice, but you wouldn't necessarily say that someone with surface level niceness is compassionate or particularly empathetic, emotionally sensitive, or warmhearted. Nice is an easy mask to wear. But the others take some skill, depth, and wisdom. They're more admirable traits.

As for believing in the Cupid's Arrow, not literally. But I think the myth comes from the way that an attraction strikes women, and occasionally men. My attractions really have come up due to no logical reason. It's just that I start inexplicably start intensely liking someone and wanting to be around them because it produces the best emotions ever.

Like imagine your body got a little hit of ecstasy every time you thought about or interacted with a particular person. And that was the only person who gave you that feeling. No one else pushes the ecstasy button but that person. That's what my attractions have been. And they come along only once in a very great while. 

But again, you're always kind of playing the lotto to a certain degree if you're trying to get a woman to fall in love with you to that depth. You can try every trick in the book, and if it doesn't happen it just won't.

But you can increase your chances by being an awesome person in general and getting rid of deal breakers and being aware of how female attraction works. But the one you want may never be interested. Which is a difficult truth to handle. But someone will be, and they will like you very intensely just because you're you. You won't have to act any which way. 

But if you're just interested in pick-up or something like that, you don't really need a woman to fall in love with you. There are a ton of women who are just looking for a good time, who aren't interested in (or sometimes not even capable of) deeper attractions. In which case, you can learn some techniques and be relatively successful for one-night-stands and brief flings. 

But if you're looking for intimacy and a real relationship with another human being, it's important to understand what makes them tick. It's also helpful to know how random it is. A lot of guys will feel like they messed something up or that something is wrong with them if a girl doesn't have an attraction to them. Guys tend to be attracted to lots of women based on looks mostly, so they might assume women are also attracted to lots of men and that the lame men get put into the friend zone. But it doesn't work that way.

Everyone in the world (except maybe Edward Norton... just sayin') starts in the friend zone. But usually only one makes it out. Maybe a few, if a woman isn't quite as pointed with her attractions as I am. But it's a really intuitive process and the choice happens on a subconscious level. 

 

Thats a great explanation thank you.

[Leo Gura]

Discussing PUA theory with women is like a lion discussing with a gazelle how best to hunt it.

Nothing good will come of it.

[Sparkist]

@fireworld Allow me to be clear. I give zero fucks about what you think about me, personally. But you are lying to yourself as well as the people in your life. And the more you reject that notion and keep your field view as narrow as it currently is, the less you will grow as a human being. If you cannot even admit to you yourself that you actively use manipulation in order to self serve through PUA then you obviously have a whole lot of work to do if you are serious about self actualisation. And after 11 years in PUA, I wouldn't think you'd have that much chance of growth. That's a really long time to remain stagnant. I wish you the best.