Is Angela Merkel stage green?

[Ferdi Le]

Hello,

after listening to Leos most recent videos, I got very interested in Spiral Dynamics and am currently contemplating what stage Angela Merkel is at. I am from germany and if some of you from the US have not noticed, we have a huge ongoing debate about immigration. So you can argue that Merkels policy is green but then I wonder if she is actually green, just because her INTENTIONS are. Because green people know wha consequences their actions have, and as I will point out, they are not actually as good as it may sound.

What the perspectives would be:

Green: Merkel and co. are actually just extremely compassionate and really think that letting so many people into Europe without slightly vetting them would make their lives better and improve Europes society (to solve the demographic problem).

BUT: The policy actually doesnt help anybody

• It does not at all change the root problem which is environmental destruction and the complex situation in Africa
• It creates a huge danger for Europe because most of these immigrants come into the country without being vetted
• It eventually will be very destructive for Europe because most of these immigrants are heavily blue (Muslim fundamentalists) and blue also has the desire to take over societys who do not believe in their "absolute truths" (you can see this with Saudi Arabia financing mosques in Europe) and the at least Germany is already changing very rapidly month by month. So of course Europe is heavily orange which is not very evolved but this Islamic blue will take us back decades (close to medieval europe). Some jews are alrwady leaving France because they are the first target of the new blue attacks
• By sending messages to Africa etc. that Germany will take all refugees and that there is no such thing as a contingent, she is encouraging all the young men to leave their familes und get in huge danger
• An Islamic Blue Europe will not be able to invent new methods to protect the environment etc.
• I could probably come up with much more

 

So Merkels policy could sound extremely green and loving and kind but if you look deeper seems just destructive to me (not great systems thinking). So what stage would you say her policy is?

 

 

DISCLAIMER:

This is not xenophobic or nazi talk. Not at all. I am a heavy supporter of changing problems for all people in all countries. But this policy IMO is not solving anything but creating much damage

 

[fireworld]

Green cares about emotions and feelings, especially inclusiveness more than anything. They live by the idea that all human beings are essentially the same and even if they are bad or crazy they just need to be rehabilitated or something.

Angela Merkel and most leaders in western Europe are Orange/Green. 

 

[Ferdi Le]

@fireworld

Ok got it!

But what about when green people actually cause more harm to the people (while trying to help everyone)?

I just have this hard dogma that green people are extremely anti logical when it comes to politics.

I personally see the huge problems of orange and capitalism, no doubt! I also am very aware of the more personal dangers like always seeking short term hedonistic pleasure instead of raising ones awareness. I cut out addictions, dont spend much money, go to Vipassana reatreats regularly and have a three year meditation practice and 1 etc.

I dont want to bragg, just clarify my following question:
 

So I am not your typical unaware orange guy who is just egotistical. I just dont see why I have to go though the kind of "ignorant and naive" stage green when it comes to politics and other issues

[Damir Elezi]

I think you should do a little more research into this topic. Merkel did not decide to take them in because she wanted to help them and she is such a compassionate human being. The problem in a nutshell is just that taking refugees is a German, European and pretty much humanitarian duty by law and countries like Italy, Spain and Greece, where refugees first arrive are at the brink of collapsing, so Germany had to take some too. Merkel keeping the borders open is an effort to keep the European Union alive, unlike Austria, Hungary or Britain who actively act against the EU as a unity of countries. Merkel is not some leftist politician who stands for political correctness and love for everybody. 

I'd say Merkel is definitely partially green, but mostly orange, strategic and practically oriented. She probably has a fair amount of blue as well, as she belongs to a conservative party and subscribes to "Christian" values. Green politicians (like people from the Green Party or the Left in Germany) would have thrown these values over board long ago. 

[Ferdi Le]

@Damir Elezi

I politely disagree. If she just wanted to give relief to the Italiy, Spain etc. she would have supported big refugee stations in North Africa. Such camps would be created by the EU states and the refugees would be safe. A controlled asylum process could take place and people who would have the right for Asyl in Europe, could be shipped there safely.

This way less people would die in the sea, Italy and Spain would not have the trouble etc.

This would have also been a much more strategic approach and would shed the competence of the EU in a way better light. If her effort would have really been to keep the EU alive, she would have done something like that. Her policy actually is right now taking the EU apart because lots of countries go right-wring to prevent Merkel-like policies in their countries.

Edited June 26, 2018 by Ferdi Le

[Leo Gura]

Many Northern European leaders are Green. Northern Europe skews very Green politically, socially, and economically.

One's level of consciousness or Spiral Dynamics level does not guarantee any kind of results.

Neither Green nor Yellow nor Turquoise guarantee that your policies will not hurt some people or lead to catastrophe.

Every stage is capable of bad policy. Policy is complex and can often backfire in unexpected ways.

Even so, Green policy tends to be much healthier overall than Orange or Blue policy.

What created the Syrian refugee crisis? Was it Green? Or was is George Bush's and the Neo-Con's Blue/Orange bright idea to invade Iraq? Which, BTW, resulted in over 100,000 civilian deaths.

"Destructive" is a relative thing. What feels "destructive" to you at Orange will not feel so once you're at Green. And vice versa.

There is no such thing as absolutely "destructive". Destructive is always a judgment relative to your ego and your Spiral stage.

[Joseph Maynor]

General Point: Resist the urge to speculate on a person’s Spiral Color unless you really know them deeply enough to do so.  Merkel might be Green or Yellow.  Who has done the research to tell us?

Edited June 26, 2018 by Joseph Maynor

[ValiantSalvatore]

As far as I know Angela Merkel grew up in the DDR and she worked as a physecist or quantum physecist, so she has a background in science and is most likely heavy orange, while transcending the blue values the DDR installed in her ? She had russian classes and was genius at school I don't know if she is green when I see her on TV I can think that she is slightly, as well as Emanuel Marcon who was a a banker or worked as an investmentbanker. He seems more green then Angela / Angie I've read some of the policies that he wanted to change in France before he was elected, for instant changing the cafeteria menu, so it is 50% vegeterian and vegan mandatorily in all schools/uni.  Also creating more space for childrens in day care centers. I don't know what he does now since people are protesting again.

I have the feeling that inside of Germany the loose of traditional values is causing the right-wing or rather traditionally minded people to cling more and more to their old values and enforce them upon other people subtely. Mutliculturism failed that is one thing Merkel once said, yet I did not follow politics during that time.

I just feel as a mixed and colored person that, people have no clue anymore who is german and who is not german. And that modernism or stage orange is going to become stronger or a collapse will happen and the AFD will reign in the Bundestag. I am scared nowadays in my region since it is a bit more traditional (even) with the u.s military here. That someone will just stab me since he dislikes refugees and can't distinguish for example an indian looking person from a person from syra or even africa / afro-american ( incase this word is not political correct in the u.s sorry !). People take so much pride in their ability to speak german nowadays, I would love to tear them apart verbally, for making fun of people who do not speak german very well. 

Germany just feels more like America (the middle class), people are starting to take more and more pride in their nationality again because of soccer, which people have been ashamed before because of WW2, yet it feels more like an modern expression, the expression to be the best you can see that if you watch german soccer it's about efficiency and being the best aka the ultimate individual.  Going back to refugees I don't think it is bad that they are living here, yet people do not like it when they do not conform to german values and standards. While they are coming from blue countries. Well, I don't know I never talked to a refugee but I have been confused for one which was an odd experience. I grew up with italiens, russians, ukranien people, croatian people, americans and people laos and vietnam. My hometown is a melting pot since we do not have many citizens there overall. Most of them just identify themselves as european or german/their home country, while going to back their own group when they are more modern things are quite coo and people mingle lol l. So, the new ethnocentric thing is calling yourself european ? It is relative since it does help bonding with people from other countires who otherwise would regard themselves as swedish let's just say for example.

Most green people that I know come financially strong/er households and go to uni and then abroad, so most younger green people will just pop up all over the world and do not want to live in Germany anymore. It does feel like green as regressed or maybe transcended green, who knows. Most young people want to go to australia, new zealand and start living and working there. Or they work in socical institutions hospitals, schools , or some therapy oriented occupations like physiotherapy.

 @Ferdi Le Do you think that the refugess will enrich the german culture in terms of it's plurality or do you think it will collapse and break down the system ( socially, politcally, or even economically) ? 

Edited June 26, 2018 by ValiantSalvatore

[SFRL]

European countries in general are more Green. 

Everytime I am in Europe I have the sense that the average happiness level is a good amount higher then in the US. 

As a whole the population seems less stressed, more content, and less materialistic then in the US.

I was just walking trough LA and I had this thought that for the US to become more Green it will really have to change it's actual infrastructure. 

In the US too much space is taken up by roads and cars, and it creates too much noise an polution. 

Also it leads to consumerism everyone wanting to have the bigger better car. 

In Europe this is way less. And people can walk everywhere. It just leads to a more natural relaxed environment. 

It will take the US some good time to change this I think. Maybe when we get self driving pods then the Infrastructure in the US can get Mich simpler and take up less space.

Edited June 28, 2018 by SFRL

[Leo Gura]

8 minutes ago, SFRL said:

Also it leads to consumerism everyone wanting to have the bigger better car.

Elon Musk to the rescue!

The US will always be more spread out than Europe given our geography.

 

[SFRL]

54 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Elon Musk to the rescue!

The US will always be more spread out than Europe given our geography.

 

Elon Musk and Tesla are simply at the right place at the right time as far as I am concerned. 

Elon Musk with Tesla is as much a product of his era and environment as Hitler and WW II was. Not just those one unique individuals. (Yeah that's a bit of a far shot). 

There is a good part of the American population that is Stage Orange-Green these days. Especially in Silicon-Valley. 

For those people a Tesla car is the perfect gadget. On one hand it speaks to their Orange part. The need to have the newest best and greatest, a fast shiny sports car. So you can outcompete the next guy. On the Other hand it speaks to their Stage Green side because they can have an electric car and celebrate the be good feel good effects on the environment. 

Neither for a pure Stage Orange or a pure Stage Green person a Tesla car would be a perfect solution. It's a real Orange-Green product. 

Also it's a new product produced again. There are plenty good second hand cars out there. But let's build another factory and produce more stuff to throw away again. 

On one hand the Tesla is a cool product and I can see the excitement in moving the technology forward, on the other hand the product is full of shit. 

Edited June 28, 2018 by SFRL

[Leo Gura]

24 minutes ago, SFRL said:

Elon Musk with Tesla is as much a product of his era and environment as Hitler and WW II was.

Well, that's true of everyone here, and Actualized.org as a whole.

Every cultural movement is a product of its time.

I think the value of Tesla is not in the cars themselves, but in the battery technology and the proof of concept.

Clearly in 50 years, most of our cars will be electric. Which will be awesome!

P.S. For an orange, you're very Green. Might be time to change your avatar to a kiwi

[Leo Gura]

8 minutes ago, Outer said:

Mentions IQ-Lead-Crime, might be worth a watch then.

IQ can be valid as a narrow individual satistical meteric. Just don't confuse it with intelligence, in the same way that you shouldn't confuse a football score with athletic skill, or an Oscar with acting ability, or GDP with a country's level of success.

Lead seems to definitely hurt mental development and make people dysfunctional.

[Moreira]

Politicians are just puppets that say and do  what their bosses tell them, just like actors interpreting. Dont judge them by how they act in their job.