Love to parents as an obstacle to enlightenment

[Buba]

Quote

 

The mother and father are your attachment

to beliefs and blood ties

and desires and comforting habits.

Dont listen to them!

They seem to protect

but they imprison.

(Rumi)

 

Does the love to parents, siblings, spouse, kids prevent you from attaining liberation?

[Saumaya]

@Buba

1)You parents, siblings, spouse and kids are same as strangers on the street. Why love your family but not the strangers. So yes, if your love is fractured and not whole, it can be a hinderance.

2) Needy attachment to anything is bad

3)There is no 'you' so there is no family. Parents, sibling, kids, etc are just a concept to related to 'you'. Family is just a biological connection to the body who apparently live together or interact more as to build a stable and deeper bond than other people.

 

[Faceless]

Goes much deeper than that. The intention to attain liberation prevents you from becoming liberated. 

Understand why you want to become liberated and then ask how that very motive prevents actual relationship/love with any body. 

 

 

Edited May 14, 2018 by Faceless

[Prabhaker]

19 minutes ago, Buba said:

Does the love to parents, siblings, spouse, kids prevent you from attaining liberation?

Jesus has said, "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple."

[MarkusSweden]

4 minutes ago, Faceless said:

Goes much deeper than that. The intention to attain liberation prevents you from becoming liberated. 

Understand why you want to become liberated and then ask how that very motive prevents actual relationship/love with any body. 

 

 

Yes, but parents and siblings often live in an ego understanding of the world and hence have an ego relationship in relation to you. That is not a problem with stranger, you are free to spend time only with those you like to do so. No one look upon you as odd for not spending time with a random stranger who want to do so. 

But if I treat my family that way, it will creates problem, because I love them, just as I love everybody, but I have no interest in spending time with them, they have their life and I have mine. For example they wouldn't understand what spirituality is about, other then some stupid waste of time. I like that though, I like that they are true to themselves. 

But my family would find it odd if I don't like to spend time with them, but why? I love them, but that's not a reason to have a relationship where you have to see each other every now and then? 

To cut ties would look like I despise them, but I don't. They just don't get me, and my traits as an individual doesn't fit in, so why bother to hang out? Why is there a stigma linked to not see your family? 

Should you continue the relation just because they are family? Why not just spend time with those who makes you truly happy, and skip the others? 

[MarkusSweden]

5 minutes ago, Prabhaker said:

Jesus has said, "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple."

Great quote! 

Can you break it down? What does it mean? 

[Faceless]

7 minutes ago, MarkusSweden said:

Should you continue the relation just because they are family? Why not just spend time with those who makes you truly happy, and skip the others?

This is my point. Find the the movement/motive to attain, accomplish, seek happiness and so on. 

Then when we see the truth of that intention/motive we understand every action we take is a movement of ego. Ego will hide behind the idea that it is not ego. 

This is all a movement of thought. The movement of thought is defensive and self serving. Thought in relationship is actually not a relationship at all. 

Edited May 14, 2018 by Faceless

[Prabhaker]

2 minutes ago, MarkusSweden said:

What does it mean? 

Word 'hate' must be a mistranslation from the Hebrew. Jesus must have said: Be indifferent, ignore. Don't be attached any more. He must have used some term which means 'be detached' from your parents, because the word 'hate' cannot be used for many reasons. If you hate your parents, you are not yet detached, you are not free.

[Faceless]

2 minutes ago, Prabhaker said:

Don't be attached any more.

I see 

but this is a movement of attachment

Very subtle. Do you see it?

[Faceless]

If we are attatched to ourselves we will inevitably be attached to other. 

[Preetom]

Just now, Faceless said:

This is my point. Find the the movement/motive to attain, accomplish, seek happiness and so on. 

Then when we see the truth of that intention/motive we understand every action we take is a movement of ego. Ego will hide behind the idea that it is not ego. 

This is all a movement of thought. The movement of thought is defensive and self serving. Thought in relationship is actually not a relationship at all. 

So how is enlightened action or non doership possible? 

[Faceless]

If there are conditions in relationship there is no real relationship. If there are conditions in love there is no love. 

This then becomes a movement of depending on others to satisfy and validate our own sense of self. 

Edited May 14, 2018 by Faceless

[Faceless]

9 minutes ago, Preetom said:

So how is enlightened action or non doership possible? 

Simple. Action from the perception of that very movement. 

Usualy we act according to the movement/pattern of thought/self. 

But for there to be intelligent action “whole” not fragmented that movement of time “thought” must end. 

Usually the pattern is thought and then action. 

But in this case the perception is the action. 

Thought is dualistic, fragmentated, and so on. We know this. So when we act according to thought any action is the same.

But the action of total perception is not influenced by thought. If there is no thought determining the action division, confusion, and contradiction doesn’t enter in as action. 

Therfore action is whole, complete, and this is what enlightened action implies. 

Edited May 14, 2018 by Faceless

[Faceless]

It’s very subtle.

[MarkusSweden]

17 minutes ago, Faceless said:

Simple. Action from the perception of that very movement. 

Usualy we act according to the movement/pattern of thought/self. 

But for there to be intelligent action “whole” not fragmented that movement of time “thought” must end. 

Usually the pattern is thought and then action. 

But in this case the perception is the action. 

Thought is dualistic, fragmentated, and so on. We know this. So when we act according to thought any action is the same.

But the action of total perception is not influenced by thought. If there is no thought determining the action division, confusion, and contradiction doesn’t enter in as action. 

Therfore action is whole, complete, and this is what enlightened action implies. 

What do you do when people ask you what you are up to because they sense your peace and happiness. But the question itself comes from thoughts and they assume your action comes from thoughts as well. 

How do you treat that without felling interrupt, because answer them from a place of no thoughts might disturb them. 

You see? When you live an enlightened life from no thoughts. Outer thoughts find that interesting and might penetrate that, and soon you are penetrated and adjusted by thoughts even if its not your own thoughts. 

World is running from thoughts, and thoughts tend to drag everything down to their level. 

Is it possible to live a life that you advocate without leading a life in solitude? 

Edited May 14, 2018 by MarkusSweden

[Preetom]

@Faceless Thanks for the reply. But don't you think such enlightened action is a byproduct of enlightenment, not something that can be practiced/done separately?

For example, belching is the byproduct of eating tummy full and eradicating hunger. You can't/don't have to practice belching beforehand. After a good meal, you may automatically belch. Suppose a hungry person sees someone eating food  and then belching. Now if that hungry guy thinks to himself that trying to belch over and over again on his empty stomach will eradicate his hunger then we can all agree that he is deluded and deserves pity. (this is an example from a Jed Mckenna book)

Aren't we doing the same thing? We see unconditional love, compassion, dispassion, trans-morality etc. traits of enlightened beings(which they acquired or got used to as a package simultaneously with Truth realization) and we think that we can separately practice these non conceptual things while we are in the deluded state. All we got now is the burden of mental concepts of unconditional love, compassion, non doership etc. Then we judge and beat ourselves up when we can't measure up to that Enlightened scale. It is impossible to measure up to that scale. These qualities are automatic response of the enlightened beings.

 

 

[eputkonen]

1 hour ago, Buba said:

Does the love to parents, siblings, spouse, kids prevent you from attaining liberation?

Love could never prevent liberation, but attachment, identification, and partiality could hinder liberation.  However, it is not possible to be without attachment prior to liberation, because the "me" is attached and partial to some but not others.  Liberation is seeing through the "me"...and so attachment falls away.  With the falling away of attachment, that does not mean you cease or do not love parents, siblings, spouse, or kids.

Love and attachment are two different things.  Opposing really.

 

In the end, the liberated have lost identification and attachment to a specific family or even country. 

The world becomes their family.  All elders become their parents...and all juniors become their children.

The attachment and identification with "my" mother and "my" father...to blood ties...imprison through a believed "me" and belief in the existence of "others" / outsiders.

Edited May 14, 2018 by eputkonen

[Viking]

ignorance prevents you from being liberated. 

distinguish "love" and attachment". if you truly love people you wont be attached. however, thats probably not the case. the left option is attachment, which is ignorance. look at what that attachment really is.

edit: @eputkonen lol saying the same at the same time

Edited May 14, 2018 by Viking

[Viking]

 

56 minutes ago, Preetom said:

So how is enlightened action or non doership possible? 

it's already the case that no one is doing anything, "you" just dont realize it, in other word to say it, there is no realization in "your" consciousness that no one is doing anything.

[Preetom]

46 minutes ago, Viking said:

 

it's already the case that no one is doing anything, "you" just dont realize it, in other word to say it, there is no realization in "your" consciousness that no one is doing anything.

Sounds worth looking into. Thanks!