Is Death Another Belief ?

[Space]

6 hours ago, Max_V said:

@Leo Gura I don’t mind having a long process. 10 years is fine.

If I were to commit myself to this, which meditation/contemplation methods would you say are most affective on long term?

Right now I have a practice of 1 hour mindfulness with labeling meditation, and 30 min of self-inquiry every day.

add in some retreats, some well-prepared psychedelic trips, and a hint of good luck and you're sorted.

[Vingger]

Is like saying how can the fact that one day we are all gonna pee be just a belief. 

 

[MisterMan]

Because the concept of peeing is is not the act of peeing and never will be. 

[Ibn Sina]

@MisterMan Nice. Where did you get that Kierkegaard poster? Plz give me the link.

[Ibn Sina]

Talking from a highly crystallized but non-metaphysical, non-gurean,  pro-materialistic perspective, all that my non-awakened mind can call for is to make to a clear distinction between belief and knowledge, which is the  core concern of epistemology.  

You are a homo sapien. It is because the DNA in your cell is same as other homo sapiens. This is knowledge. 

You are a hindus, muslim, an alpha, a beta, a descendent of caesar, napoleon, a success , a faliure , these things  can be categorized as beliefs.

I think a fact is static, it can be replayed again and again. It is when your mind and mind of god are in sync. A belief is a fussy fact that our particular position and chance has happened to by the infinity grace of the divine light, impinged into the mirror of our juvenile mind when we were once children.

Edited March 13, 2018 by Ibn Sina

[MisterMan]

@Ibn Sina I would have to disagree there. 

Thoughts are symbolic by nature, like a mirror.

It's like calling a reflection of a tree the actual tree it is reflecting. It isn't true, and by realising this.  "Truth" becomes an abstraction.

Edited March 15, 2018 by MisterMan

[Ibn Sina]

@MisterMan I was talking about making the distinction between knowledge and belief, which are after allbsymbols, but I didn''t realize that this would give a message that because I was talking about knowledge and beliefs I was equating experiential and physical reality with symbols. yes, I am fully aware of the distinction between symbols and the reality they represent.  The sentence " apple is red" is also nothing else but symbols, there is nothing real about the symbols of the sentence "apple is red" nor is there any reality to the sound that they produce, but whether we create or not create these symbols, the reality that they hold is true, your eyes can see it. The apple is not red, because we think it is red, or imagine it, but because light of a certain wave length acts on our retina and certain photoreceptors are activated then we see red, then we create certain symbols to represent this experience. Like someone here said-we cannot say that the act of peeing is a belief. Why? because we can experience the act of peeing, then we represent this experience in symbols. You said thougths are like mirror which is true, but it is not a very perfect mirror. It can easily reflect the reality that apples are red because it is a simple physical phenomenon which is just about perception, but what about something  like- Jesus is son of God.  This sentence and that of apple , both contain nothing else but symbols, but what it is not about the symbols, it is about the reality that they represent. Symbols are only there for communication with other people, but to percieve reality first hand there is no need of symbol. So it is true that an apple is red because you can SEE that it is red right before your eyes, or it is true that fire is hot because you can FEEL that the fire is hot , touch the fire and you know that it is hot, but you cannot touch, hear, feel, taste , or has a physical evidence of the setof symbols that - jesus is the son of god, and despite this if one thinks that this is true then it is a belief . So in the end, yes the physicality of the symbols have no connection to reality but the represented reality of some symbols matches the experiential reailty more than other set of symbols.   Like the represented reality of the set of symbols sun rises in the east matches the experiential reality more than the represented reality of the set of symbols- sun rises in the west. Now with this kind of thinking another question arises, so should we rely always only on the present moment reality?  Is there no reality to experiences that is in our memory? Did history never happen? Was george washington never alive? Did american revolution never happen? I mean, no one ever saw that right ? We have only some symbols  and some manuscripts to back up this claim right? So american revolution should have never happened?  One forum member was saying that death does not exist because it has never happened to you. Seriously? Ok lets extract the logic out of this sentence and just change the variables. Old age does not happen because I am a young man and it has never happened to me therefore it will never happen. Justin beiber does not exist because I have never seen him nor heard him in person, just sound waves and electrons in the the screen. Even Leo does not exist , I have only got some sound waves and electrons in the screen. So should I believe that Leo DOES NOT EXIST? Should I believe that ageing does not exist? Remember, I have never had first hand experience of these things. By that logic , entire field of medicine can be thrown away, there are thousands of diseases, concepts, dose regimens, which even the oldest of physician don't have the time for first hand experience, at one point or another, it's all just symbols in some book., we cannot say-ah, these are just symbols , I have never experienced it so it doesn't exist( like- I have never experienced death so tI doesn not, exist) and yet it works,it works because the reality that they hold repesents the experiential reality. Most knowledge that we hold, comes from a secondary experience, we have never fallen of a building, or went into a tiger's cage and still we don't want to , why? Because deep within we know that these secondary experiences are true, that is why we don't fall off a cliff although we have never actually fallen off a cliff. Now if that is the case, then how can death be a belief? We have seen it happen to other fellow people, how they stopped to animate. We are willing to believe that taking poison causes death although all we have seen is other people dying, but how can we say that death does not exist because we have never died yet and have seen only other people dying?

Edited March 15, 2018 by Ibn Sina

[Nahm]

@Hermes Trismegistus You could realize this truth right now. It would be from your answers, and the inquiry evoked. If you’re interested, let me know. Fair warning though you’ll quit answering, or realize the truth. 

[MisterMan]

@Nahm Yeah, i think we got it .

@Ibn Sina I agree. 

When Leo said  "language creates reality", i guess you could say i'm in the process of extracting the juice of said statement. 

It seems to me there are 3 factors based on your post that contribute to us acnkowledging certain concepts as beliefs and others as knowledge. And that is purpose, not truth. We may be obsessed with truth but that is because of purpose we identify "truth" with. Which isn't the most stable and reliable pillar to base your whole understanding on. It's paradoxical, the self and truth. Being aware of a fictional character is going to do that

It is very interesting because i am seeing just how dependant i have been and am on language and how it literally creates my reality.

I made an observation about hinduism, bhuddism, christianity (jesus most likely resembled bhudda more than what we think now), western psychology and even magick.

Reading between the lines it seems everyone is dealing with the same experience. In the world of magick which i admitedly know nothing about but have been able to observe that each practice preaches different words which are loaded with different meanings. Like of talking to a demon posessing you and rehabilitating him into the light sounds a lot like jungian psychology and integrating the shadow into your psyche, or bhuddist principle of there is no good and bad. 

My point is there are so many ways to practically be able to mirror these experiences and for them to have an impact but also completely change how you perceive the world!  Using the words spirits and entities instead of feelings and emotions to frame your experience. Both sets of words loaded with different associations and meanings. My point is how completely dependant we are on the map to perceive reality and that how we discredit other practices when you read between the lines they are very very similar. Just different methods for same conclusions. 

Edited March 16, 2018 by MisterMan

[Nahm]

@MisterMan Not sure why it posted 3 times. Makes me look really aggressive.  Lol.