Is logic absolute?

[ahmad ibdah]

Are logic rules like, 1+1=2 or you cannot" be and not to be" at the same time,absolute? . Does enlightment makes these rules melt  down into nothing or do they still have their power even in the core of an enlightment experience? 

Note: Apperantly, who have the validity to answer these questions must had at least one enlightment experience, however I will be pleased to read anyone's thoughts about this topic. 

Edited January 2, 2018 by ahmad ibdah
Grammers

[Leo Gura]

No formed or perceivable thing is absolute.

[Edvard]

34 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

No formed or perceivable thing is absolute.

That means free will is possible. But it isn't... only as an illusion it is. So certain logics have to be absolute. Now of course, the concept of free will or not is an invention of the mind.

Oh, maybe free will is not formed or perceivable? But it is logic, and I would say absolute...

Edited January 2, 2018 by Edvard

[Dodo]

2 hours ago, ahmad ibdah said:

Are logic rules like, 1+1=2 or you cannot" be and not to be" at the same time,absolute? . Does enlightment makes these rules melt  down into nothing or do they still have their power even in the core of an enlightment experience? 

Note: Apperantly, who have the validity to answer these questions must had at least one enlightment experience, however I will be pleased to read anyone's thoughts about this topic. 

Where is logic in your dreams? Nuff said

[David_eh]

2 hours ago, Edvard said:

That means free will is possible. But it isn't... only as an illusion it is. So certain logics have to be absolute. Now of course, the concept of free will or not is an invention of the mind.

Oh, maybe free will is not formed or perceivable? But it is logic, and I would say absolute...

I'd say that conditioning dictates our thoughts and actions only to a degree and that conscious choice does the rest. Through taking charge and being mindful, we interrupt animal instinct.

Otherwise it's kind of silly to bother with self actualization.

Edited January 2, 2018 by David_eh

[Edvard]

@David_eh you and some others here are talking of free will as though if it didn't exist, actions don't matter. Nothing about what makes you suffer or feel better changes whether you believe in one or the other (except that knowing what is true is beneficial for us all). 

No free will doesn't make everybody equally wise or stupid, but it does take away the responsibility, reason for true blame, and our notion of pure evil, which is a big deal if no free will is true. Yet you're saying like :«but..but.. no free will? Then why should I do anything then? When nothing I do will make me better than others? Like, it's kind of silly to self actualize when it doesn't make me superior».

So, who is saying that? The ego of course. And what are we trying to do with the ego here? Seeing it for what it is; an illusion. Right?

29 minutes ago, David_eh said:

 

29 minutes ago, David_eh said:

29 minutes ago, David_eh said:

 

[Dodo]

@David_eh @Edvard  A wise being once said: "The illusion of free will is a great discovery, but a poor teaching"  Sure there is no free will, but life should be lived as if there is free will.  

[egoless]

Enlightenment is just the knowing of who you are and nothing more... don’t delude yourself that after this notoriously known “Enlightenment” you will turn into Yoda molding the reality and rules of physics!

Edited January 2, 2018 by egoless

[Edvard]

4 minutes ago, Dodo said:

@David_eh @Edvard  A wise being once said: "The illusion of free will is a great discovery, but a poor teaching"  Sure there is no free will, but life should be lived as if there is free will.  

That is something I could be more open to discussing. Although the belief in free will is creating an enourmous amount of suffering to humanity. But it may be that telling it to someone who isn't «ready» for it could be harmful, idk. But I'm interested in what is true. I think life should be lived as if there isn't anything, just presence. That is the ultimate goal.

[Dodo]

Just now, Edvard said:

That is something I could be more open to discussing. Although the belief in free will is creating an enourmous amount of suffering to humanity. But it may be that telling it to someone who isn't «ready» for it could be harmful, idk. But I'm interested in what is true. I think life should be lived as if there isn't anything, just presence. That is the ultimate goal.

But everything IS presence. You've achieved your ultimate goal!   

[Edvard]

@Dodo I think the important thing to take away from this is getting to the state of not knowing. Don't live your life as if you have free will, but don't live your life as if you don't have free will either, in terms of being. On a, pragmatic level I think we're better off acknowledging the illusion.

Problem is, most people assume we have free will. 

Edited January 2, 2018 by Edvard

[Dodo]

1 minute ago, Edvard said:

@Dodo I think the important thing to take away from this is getting to the state of not knowing. Don't live your life as if you have free will, but don't live your life as if you don't have free will either. Problem is, most people assume we have free will. 

I don't think about it... I used to argue on the side of no free will. Doesn't matter! Lol, that's not the kind of truth we should be worried about  That's just the mind wanting to argue for another piece of candy and be right for the sake of being right.

Absolutely agree that accepting the state of not knowing is great <3 I've found that it's easy to accept once you know you don't NEED TO KNOW. LOL. 

Edited January 2, 2018 by Dodo

[ahmad ibdah]

@egoless  I know after enlightment everything will go back to normal and I know that the path leading to enlightment is actually way more important than  one single experience of enlightment but I am interested in that specific moment where when you become enlightened, are you in that state capable of seeing the universe, the life in a different way,I mean in different set of rules, or even without rules!? 

[egoless]

35 minutes ago, ahmad ibdah said:

@egoless  I know after enlightment everything will go back to normal and I know that the path leading to enlightment is actually way more important than  one single experience of enlightment but I am interested in that specific moment where when you become enlightened, are you in that state capable of seeing the universe, the life in a different way,I mean in different set of rules, or even without rules!? 

Everything is the same except you know who you are. And that ultimately changes “your” attitude towards life. 

[David_eh]

1 hour ago, Edvard said:

@David_eh you and some others here are talking of free will as though if it didn't exist, actions don't matter. Nothing about what makes you suffer or feel better changes whether you believe in one or the other (except that knowing what is true is beneficial for us all). 

No free will doesn't make everybody equally wise or stupid, but it does take away the responsibility, reason for true blame, and our notion of pure evil, which is a big deal if no free will is true. Yet you're saying like :«but..but.. no free will? Then why should I do anything then? When nothing I do will make me better than others? Like, it's kind of silly to self actualize when it doesn't make me superior».

So, who is saying that? The ego of course. And what are we trying to do with the ego here? Seeing it for what it is; an illusion. Right?

The illusion is a tool, not some kind of boogeyman to be gotten rid of. 

None of what you just said made a lot of sense and I don't think you understood my argument. 

Who said anything about being superior? If there were no free will then it is kind of silly to bother trying to decide on anything including what to have for lunch.

Saying there is no free will is the same as saying there is no personal responsibility for our thoughts and actions. It's the same as saying it's all God's will and it's a complete cop out. 

[David_eh]

2 hours ago, Dodo said:

@David_eh @Edvard  A wise being once said: "The illusion of free will is a great discovery, but a poor teaching"  Sure there is no free will, but life should be lived as if there is free will.  

Uh, no. 

If compassion is just some nice ideal in spite of the truth instead of the logical position in light of the truth then the understanding is flawed.

[Edvard]

19 minutes ago, David_eh said:

ho said anything about being superior? If there were no free will then it is kind of silly to bother trying to decide on anything including what to have for lunch.

Why is that silly? If you like caviar, you can still have caviar.

 

Yes, you could say it's God's will, although neither «he» has free will, in the ultimate sense. This is correct:

19 minutes ago, David_eh said:

Saying there is no free will is the same as saying there is no personal responsibility for our thoughts and actions. It's the same as saying it's all God's will and it's a complete cop out. 

 

Edited January 2, 2018 by Edvard

[David_eh]

2 hours ago, Edvard said:

Why is that silly? If you like caviar, you can still have caviar.

 

Yes, you could say it's God's will, although neither «he» has free will, in the ultimate sense. This is correct:

 

Except that a creator god is nonsensical. 

It is silly to pretend we have no ability to make decisions and follow through. 

There is not free will but there is conditional will. If there was free will I could sprout wings and fly but if there was no ability to affect change at all like many here think then we would all just be on auto pilot.

It's an amusing little thought but in the end it is irresponsible doctrine to pretend we have no ability to assert our will.

[Edvard]

11 minutes ago, David_eh said:

Except that a creator god is nonsensical. 

It is silly to pretend we have no ability to make decisions and follow through. 

There is not free will but there is conditional will. If there was free will I could sprout wings and fly but if there was no ability to affect change at all like many here think then we would all just be on auto pilot.

It's an amusing little thought but in the end it is irresponsible doctrine to pretend we have no ability to assert our will.

Except I didn't put God as a requirement of no free will. 

Just to make it clear: do you believe the self exists? Do you believe you exist? What do you think of when I say «dissolving the ego». And what do you then think is left?

[Nahm]

@ahmad ibdah You can see the universe. But it won’t be the person you seeing it. When there is no person, there are no rules. Nothing is physical, it is appearance.