The Truth about Psychedelics.

[WaveInTheOcean]

what you don't seem to get is that the experience you're having right now in this moment is a hallucination. you're hallucinating being a 'self' inside a skull interacting with an -- to you -- outside external world.

psychedelics merely have the ability to slightly distort that experience, making it apparant to you, that what you take for a fact -- that there exist a materialistic reality independent of you -- is not a fact, but merely an illusion =) 

Also your notion of how psychedelic trips are is totally wrong and comes from the cultural mass media, which naturally finds it amusing to portray an image of psychedelics making you see elephants and making you believe you can fly, which is not at all what you experience on psychedelics. What you experience on psychedelics can best be described as like viewing yourself from an outside perspective, which then shows you, that you, yourself, is just a story, and not real.

"A wall exists, even if you don't see it you can't walk through it, even if your perception of it changes, you can never walk through that wall."

There exists no such thing as a wall. "A wall" is a mental concept. It's a conceptual division of the unity of existence into parts: "me", "wall", "other human", "monkey", "star", "galaxy", "kitchen", "stone", "floor", "house". Psychedelics or meditation can show you that it's all YOU which is a very beautiful insight to have... it's all you my friend.

If you actually start to contemplate your everyday experience, you'll find that it's actually all an unified experience without any 'things'/'nouns' in it. Dividing and thus labeling your experience as being constitued of 'parts' (me, wall, floor, things, food, lion, other humans) is what your brain is programmed to do, because it's necessary for interacting with the world in order to survive. But this 'dividing', 'splitting' and 'labeling' of reality is really just an ego-smaug that you unconsciously lay upon 'raw' reality.

You say you can't walk through a wall. "Who" is it that cannot? Yes, the body surely can't, but that's just the basic laws of the dream. There has to be somewhat consistent "physical" laws within a dream in order for you to believe it's not a dream but instead "hardcore reality", hehe  If everything was totally random then you would know it's a hoax, and you wouldn't be able to live the dream. 

The distinction between 'reality' and 'dream' or 'reality' and 'hallucination' is very arbitrary and is only made unconsciously from a survival-standpoint, or should we say, a kind of survival-programming. Psychedelics totally messes up with all that biological and cultural programming in your brain. Not just the happiness-centres of the brain (which are likely the only parts that drugs like cocaine or heroine alter). No, psychedelics messes it all up. All of it. And that's why they are so fucking powerful consciousness-tools. They show you that it's all a hoax, that everything is relative and grounded in absolute nothing.

Edited December 8, 2017 by WaveInTheOcean

[Leo Gura]

13 hours ago, Mahmoud Bishr Kebbeh said:

Pychedelics don't affect reality at all, they only affect the brain and its perception of reality.

How do psychedelics work?

Well, whatever psychedelic you take or hear about they all share the same mechanism. They bond to receptors in YOUR brain causing consciousness alterations.

So when someone comes to you claiming to derive the "Truth" by tripping on some psychedelic, now you know the truth. You can google that, stop listening to people in this forum and believing them blindly, they are deluded. You don't need to try psychedelics to know what they do. Though we don't know yet if they cause any damage to our brains.

A wall exists, even if you don't see it you can't walk through it, even if your perception of it changes, you can never walk through that wall.

Material stuff exist, meanings are relative. That's where psychedelics can be useful. They can show you that your perception of emotions, meanings and values is so sneaky.

Never talk about the truth when you're smoking!

An exquisite example of paradigm blindness.

Almost seems like it should work. Almost, but not really. Keep learning young Padawan

[mp22]

13 hours ago, Mahmoud Bishr Kebbeh said:

Pychedelics don't affect reality at all, they only affect the brain and its perception of reality.

How do psychedelics work?

Well, whatever psychedelic you take or hear about they all share the same mechanism. They bond to receptors in YOUR brain causing consciousness alterations.

So when someone comes to you claiming to derive the "Truth" by tripping on some psychedelic, now you know the truth. You can google that, stop listening to people in this forum and believing them blindly, they are deluded. You don't need to try psychedelics to know what they do. Though we don't know yet if they cause any damage to our brains.

A wall exists, even if you don't see it you can't walk through it, even if your perception of it changes, you can never walk through that wall.

Material stuff exist, meanings are relative. That's where psychedelics can be useful. They can show you that your perception of emotions, meanings and values is so sneaky.

Never talk about the truth when you're smoking!

You know how we get around that? the brain doesn't exist!  beat that, smartass

[Natasha]

@Mahmoud Bishr Kebbeh I don't take psychedelics and yet get same insights and have same perspective as those who do for consciousness work and enlightenment. Find ways to quiet your mind (meditation) and do self-inquiry - the Truth is accessible, with or without psychedelics. It's just that psychedelics help you dissolve the 'self' faster.  

[Extreme Z7]

18 hours ago, Mahmoud Bishr Kebbeh said:

A wall exists, even if you don't see it you can't walk through it, even if your perception of it changes, you can never walk through that wall.

Oh Shit, you're right!

For example, whenever I play a video game and my avatar can't walk through a wall, that means that wall must be REAL! This changes everything!

[Max_V]

@Natasha Yes, I'm not very knowledgable about psychedelics but as far as I understand they can be used as a tool to speed up the process.

The road without psychedelics could take longer but it will eventually result in the same

 

Edited December 9, 2017 by Max_V

[Principium Nexus]

You are still wandering in maya, the illusion of seperation or solidity of "things". Once you get it you will be awe-struck. It's all one endless flowing river of undiffertiated experience, you create things by seperating them from the whole, but this seperation is only in the mind.

If you learn that the mind is a construct of relativistic things and labels and understand that everything you think of is only a concept and not the the the truth itself, then you can also see that all science is build upon loose ground. The only TRUTH you have is EXPERIENCE.

So dont talk about knowing truth if you have never done it before.

 

[pluto]

The Truth about Psychedelics

On Psychedelics you realize that Shakespeare’s idea that “All the world’s a stage” was excitingly true. Everyone else is still acting in this play, taking their characters very seriously. But you are backstage, watching it all play out with your mask off for once. Your beliefs, which you now realize are oh-so human and tied to your subjective sense of self, have come off with that mask. You are now able to look at the world through a truly different lens for the very first time. Without the filters of ‘sobriety’, the nature and innate truths of the world become clear and simple.

Furthermore, your appreciation for absolutely everything is exponentially magnified. That filter in your brain that says “I’ve seen that flower a thousand times before, so it’s not that cool anymore” is turned off. Even the most insignificant objects are seen as though it is the first time you’ve ever encountered them. You are temporarily reborn with a child’s eyes & mind for 4-6 hours.

[Guest Young Padawan]

3 hours ago, pluto said:

The Truth about Psychedelics

On Psychedelics you realize that Shakespeare’s idea that “All the world’s a stage” was excitingly true. Everyone else is still acting in this play, taking their characters very seriously. But you are backstage, watching it all play out with your mask off for once. Your beliefs, which you now realize are oh-so human and tied to your subjective sense of self, have come off with that mask. You are now able to look at the world through a truly different lens for the very first time. Without the filters of ‘sobriety’, the nature and innate truths of the world become clear and simple.

Furthermore, your appreciation for absolutely everything is exponentially magnified. That filter in your brain that says “I’ve seen that flower a thousand times before, so it’s not that cool anymore” is turned off. Even the most insignificant objects are seen as though it is the first time you’ve ever encountered them. You are temporarily reborn with a child’s eyes & mind for 4-6 hours.

I can't trust that yet.

I think that the mask you mentioned would become an astronaut suit on psychedelics.

To be totally objective, I have to choose between two paradigms:

1) Your paradigm: Which encourages to try psychedelics before making judgments.

2) The scientific paradigm: Which gives me a lot of information without me needing to experience by myself.

And yet it seems to be more convincing to go with the second one (at least for now), because the first one is based on human senses and the second is based on scientific experiments.

[Guest Young Padawan]

14 minutes ago, Shiva said:

@Mahmoud Bishr Kebbeh All of this is based on the belief that an external world outside of your perception exists.

You just don't realize that it's a belief. You have no proof for the existence of a reality independent of you exists at all. Neither does science. It's impossible to prove this "objectively". 

The deluded one is you. You believe something that you don't know. 

In contrast, Leo suggests an open investigation by challenging your most fundamental beliefs through Psychedelics.

Consider the possibility that psychedelics can provide you some valueabke input to answer the question whether anything but your own perception exists.

Assuming that everything only exists in my mind. It doesn't change anything. Scientific experiments are always totally objective.
I like Leo's open-mindedness and I encourage it. I like most of his content too. But honestly I still don't agree with this subject yet, and I'm open to accept that in the future if I'm convinced.

Edited December 10, 2017 by Mahmoud Bishr Kebbeh

[Guest Young Padawan]

22 minutes ago, Shiva said:

Actually, not at all!

Science is highly biased by culture and many other things. Additionally, there are countless studies on the same topic that contradict each other.

And above all, objective does not exist. Objective is fundamentally subjective. If you conduct a scientific experiment, the entire experiment takes place in your own, first-person experience, from it's design to it's conclusion. 

Objectivity is a sub-domain of subjectivity! It is an artificial concept. You have nothing but your own first-person experience. You cannot verify if anything outside it exists at all.

I don't take side-track studies seriously. Mainstream science is objective enough.

And 'objectivity is a sub-domain of subjectivity' is a good point. I need to think about it.

I will keep my opinion for myself for now because I don't want to turn this discussion into an argument.

Just don't forget that your first-person experience is happening only through your senses.

Edited December 10, 2017 by Mahmoud Bishr Kebbeh

[mp22]

50 minutes ago, Shiva said:

@Mahmoud Bishr Kebbeh All of this is based on the belief that an external world outside of your perception exists.

You just don't realize that it's a belief. You have no proof for the existence of a reality independent of you exists at all. Neither does science. It's impossible to prove this "objectively". 

The deluded one is you. You believe something that you don't know. 

In contrast, Leo suggests an open investigation by challenging your most fundamental beliefs through Psychedelics.

Consider the possibility that psychedelics can provide you some valueabke input to answer the question whether anything but your own perception exists.

Psychedelics are also part of the illusion then. Why believe one part of the illusion (toad squirt) but not another (science, which enables us to have this conversation right now instead of meeting face to face)?

[mp22]

27 minutes ago, see_on_see said:

If that was the case, why would we be raving about psychedelics so much? 

Could it be that this myth that "taking psychedelics and not taking psychedelics gives the same results" is a story you guys tell yourself to avoid trying them?

Could it be that not taking psychedelics will prevent you from accessing truths and insights that you probably will never get in your entire lifetime of regular consciousness work?

Something to think about.

Do not forget that there are people like myself who have tried drugs including acid. I had good and bad trips depending on a range of things including the environment and company I was in.  That's it, just my (non-existent) brain doing crazy things like when I'm dreaming for instance. It all seems very real until the trip is over. There is an anti-malaria drug called lariam which has caused several people who took it to think they are God and that this is all a dream. Sound familiar? 

[Max_V]

@see_on_see It could certainly be. I'm not denying any of that.

But I do think that a path without psychedelics is possible. So many enlightened teachers have never touched a psychedelic in their life and still have the depth of understanding that they have.

As far as I understand, Truth is not something that you can only access with psychedelics. Psychedelics are simply a tool to help make the process of recognition faster.

I might try 5-meo at some time in my life since I'm very passionate about pursuing Truth. If there is any tool out there that could assist me, I'm very open to try. But I just don't feel like it's the right time for me in my life to do this. I first want to see how much my current practices and inquiry can take me. When I'm a little older and more responsible in the sense that I can make decisions more mindfully I will definitely consider looking into it.

Edited December 10, 2017 by Max_V

[Max_V]

@see_on_see I agree with what you are saying except for the fact that they are coming from different places.

Adyashanti, Rupert Spira, Eckhart Tolle, Peter Ralston

All westeners. All enlightened teachers who just explored their experience rigorously. (Except for Eckhart maybe, he's a different case)

[Guest Young Padawan]

What I ended up getting from this discussion is that we can't know anything for sure. Reality may exist or not. It's not an illusion nor it's real, we just can't know.

Also, psychedelics can intensify our present experience. They give us a new perspective to consider. A new way to look at life.

[Nahm]

[Guest Young Padawan]

39 minutes ago, Shiva said:

I wouldn't conclude that we cannot know yet. Maybe we can...

Personally, I don't know if we can know or not (yet). But I don't want to leave any opportunity unexplored. Before I have not tried everything, I won't conclude that we cannot know reality.

Because we can't know if we can't know; I can agree with you. That's another good perspective to look at life from.

Good luck ?

Edited December 10, 2017 by Mahmoud Bishr Kebbeh

[Guest Young Padawan]

16 minutes ago, DrMobius said:

Why do you prefer "objective information" over experience in the first place? That's a very sad position if you ask me. What good does it do to a blind person to know every last piece of information about wavelengths from 390 to 700 nm... if they can't directly experience colors?

I don't prefer any of them anymore! But what if I was not blind in the first place? That information might help experiencing new colors by moving out of this field of view (maybe by using an ultraviolet light transformer) someday in the future!

[Will Bigger]

On 12/8/2017 at 2:53 AM, Principium Nexus said:

How are you so sure to call this "the truth"? Psychedelics strip away all these presumed concepts, they leave you speechless, they show naked reality.

To be more scientific, they 'disable' the thalamus, thus give you an unrestricted flow of information. Nothing is coordinated, everything comes fully in raw form without further editing.

And yes you have to try psychedlics to understand what they do, their implications on altering conciousness are ungraspable, only experience can fully show what it means. Some short scientific explanation about neurotrasmitters is a complete joke!!

Think about any experience you ever had, maybe falling in love or being in pure joy. You think something like this can be simplified just to some text or short explanation about neurons firing in the brain?

Really, explain me how we come from firing some neurons which are build from billions of atoms, to this level of concious experience. How can all this dead material we are build from create these visual images, perception of sound, taste, touch. 

Experience is the most full truth you can ever get, science is a mere fragment and will never be able to explain reality as a whole.

He's right. 

The idea that consciousness can be created by dead matter is logically impossible. What we mean by "matter"and what we mean by "consciousness" are mutually exclusive concepts.