I Want To Be A Chimp :)

[Truth]

2 hours ago, electroBeam said:

"talking and being convinced by others doesn't make you become enlightened." yes it does... if someone convinces you that enlightenment is good, you will be motivated to meditate and be enlightened.

"The only thing anyone is really doing when they tell you something about enlightenment is pointing you to this "blind spot" that's all anyone is doing" 

if the fiction has an effect on you that motivates you, then the fiction is a good thing. If no one gives you that fiction A you will make up a fiction that doesn't motivate you B you will not make up a fiction and again not be motivated.

"people can explain away anything you think and conceptualize and they will, why? because it's exactly what we are trying not to do, people have their own agendas and trying to convince themselves of things." Who here is trying to convince themselves of things about their enlightenment experience? They are simply explaining their experience. What is wrong with having an agenda, apart from because it feels bad, or feels wrong? Two completely subjective social constructions? Prove having an agenda is always a "bad thing". you also have an agenda on here, by posting this reply in the first place. You want the OP to be convinced of your opinions, just like everyone else on here.

 

People in this world are not going to become enlightened simply through their own accord. Free will doesn't exist, if they are not exposed to this stuff, if they are not convinced by people, their egos' are not going to allow them to become enlightened. They simply will not have the will and determination to achieve this journey. Emotional support through means such as this forum is a necessity for 90% of people. Saying that this is a lone wolf act, and that this forum is "counter productive" is simply counter productive itself.   

 

Being motivated and actually BEING enlightened are two different things. someone can know everything there is to know about enlightenment and still not be enlightened.

Again I'm not talking about motivation, I'm talking about actually being enlightened, I never said the fiction is good or bad, I never said it doesn't help, all of which are assumptions you've made.

Again you assume I said having an agenda is bad. Some people seek validation to see if they got it, Some selflessly explain their experiences. And also I am aware of my own agenda, again, assuming that I'm not aware of what I'm saying. My "agenda" is maybe giving OP a little insight and traction to stay on this track and take responsibility to do the work. and it seems your agenda is to explain away everything I said to serve your ego and buy into your own bullshit. (yes, same as I am right now.) Who is this helping? you? me? or the OP?

I agree that people need to know about enlightenment and be motivated, and I also agree that this forum can be helpful, but it's counter productive in the sense that talking and theorizing and creating story's and yapping does not make you become enlightened it might help yes, but it won't be permanent. People who take responsibility for this don't need emotional support, they take whatever information they have and work with it. People who need emotional support aren't committed to the journey, they just wanna see what's going on. Taking on this journey is gonna need more than just motivation and some enlightenment experiences.

 

Edited February 23, 2016 by Truth

[Aldo Marchand]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Enjoy your chimpdom.

 

Lmao chimpdom

[electroBeam]

43 minutes ago, Truth said:

Being motivated and actually BEING enlightened are two different things. someone can know everything there is to know about enlightenment and still not be enlightened.

Again I'm not talking about motivation, I'm talking about actually being enlightened, I never said the fiction is good or bad, I never said it doesn't help, all of which are assumptions you've made.

Again you assume I said having an agenda is bad. Some people seek validation to see if they got it, Some selflessly explain their experiences. And also I am aware of my own agenda, again, assuming that I'm not aware of what I'm saying. My "agenda" is maybe giving OP a little insight and traction to stay on this track and take responsibility to do the work. and it seems your agenda is to explain away everything I said to serve your ego and buy into your own bullshit. (yes, same as I am right now.) Who is this helping? you? me? or the OP?

I agree that people need to know about enlightenment and be motivated, and I also agree that this forum can be helpful, but it's counter productive in the sense that talking and theorizing and creating story's and yapping does not make you become enlightened it might help yes, but it won't be permanent. People who take responsibility for this don't need emotional support, they take whatever information they have and work with it. People who need emotional support aren't committed to the journey, they just wanna see what's going on. Taking on this journey is gonna need more than just motivation and some enlightenment experiences.

 

 

"again, assuming that I'm not aware of what I'm saying" I never said you didn't know what you were saying, you are assuming I don't know that you don't know what you are saying. I was simply pointing it out to you, and everyone who reads my comment, because it contradicts your entire message. You may be aware of it, but its still a point I can raise.

"maybe giving OP a little insight and traction to stay on this track and take responsibility to do the work." That's a little far fetched, but besides, I find it hypocritical that your entire post is about not listening to anyone, because people trying to persuade you have their own 'agendas', and yet, you just revealed that you also are trying to persuade the op to do enlightenment. The quote above proves it.

"and it seems your agenda is to explain away everything I said"  Kind of, I simply like having a community who are on an enlightenment path, and who are willing to help each other achieve that. I'm against people trying to stop that; or who are persuading people to reduce it, and simply react accordingly. To help grow this community, we need to convince people to do enlightenment, if not(like what you are suggesting) this community will not grow and flourish, and will keep to low numbers.

"it's counter productive in the sense that talking and theorizing and creating story's and yapping does not make you become enlightened it might help yes, but it won't be permanent." yes I totally agree with you. Of course I do. But there are also a lot of people who don't talk about enlightenment, our mums, dads, school friends, (assuming here of course), co-workers, whatever, and they are no closer to,(actually further away from) enlightenment than us. But like what Leo's video said, we need some sort of technique to motivate us. I, and everyone else, is not going to sit and meditate just for the hell of it. We need some sort of fantasy of what the end result will be.

"People who take responsibility for this don't need emotional support, they take whatever information they have and work with it." I just don't know how you can think anyone is like that. Who the hell is born with so much emotional mastery that they can fight their negative thoughts, and have the discipline to sit and meditate for 30 minutes a day, without the slightest fantasy of what it can achieve? Without the slightest idea of the end result, the reward? Without knowing if this hard effort is going to get any reward in the first place?

Emotional support has helped me a lot, I don't see how I am a façade though.

Taking on this journey is gonna need more than just motivation and some enlightenment experiences.

Like what? what else keeps us going except motivation? Some sort of divine ring?

Of course, I see myself as helping the OP, because I am trying to convince him to do enlightenment, you disagree, but even you will agree that you aren't really helping the op, you are critiquing the people in this forum, not really persuading the op to do enlightenment.

Edited February 23, 2016 by electroBeam

[Truth]

@electroBeam You can't seem to read between the lines of what I'm saying, you take everything I say at face value. You take everything I say and break it apart. I can do that too, but I'm not gonna play this justification game with you. Your whole paradigm of "this is wrong" and "this is not what I meant" and "this means this" and "you are actually saying this" and "if you say this it means this" can't you see all your assumptions and insinuations are just that? No matter what I say you'll do a mental gymnastic to turn it back on me. I'm not the one saying anything is good or bad YOU ARE, I'm not the one saying this is true, YOU ARE. I'm not the one saying someone is born with emotional mastery. YOU ARE. Just because I say something doesn't mean you need to believe me. Now go ahead and explain away everything I said so you can feel better about yourself. This is just a justification game. There's no point it's just beliefs attacking beliefs. World views attacking world views. Just a new dogma.

[ayokolomo]

7 hours ago, step1 said:

 

Not sure whether you are being sarcastic or not...

 

I think anyone who has an ego that serves them well will never understand a person who has an ego that does not serve them well.  A lot of people who go down the road of enlightenment did not choose to do so, it was their only option.  Lisa Cairns is one of them.

 

I've read a lot of self help and although its has helped it has no way near had as much impact that meditation and self enquiry has had on me.  Although I was initially freaked out after I became 'aware', the aftermath of this is actually peace and relief; there has been a huge weight lifted from my shoulders and I feel like I no longer need to live up to anyone's expectations and don't take myself so seriously anymore. 

Lets agree that the ego is an illusion.  

During my meditation I create space between the true self and the ego.  I think alot of people get to this stage then stop.  

 As I continue to examine the ego, I have come to understand the importance that identity plays in how the ego works.  But its an illusion.  The identity may be formed unconsciously, through the memory, but if I can consciously alter parts of my memory I can consciously alter my identity, which means I consciously alter my ego.  

If you can consciously alter your illusory ego would you be happy or unhappy?  Its not as easy as this post suggests, but it is possible.  

I did this mostly because of a self sabotaging low self esteem issue.  Through this I was able to see that I this was just an illusion.  Of course happiness is an illusion too, but it is definetly more pleasent!

[electroBeam]

@Truth Sure, but you have to admit, you were doing the same thing at the start, and then I followed.

What I got from your reply was emotional support is not needed, and my knowledge field cannot compute that.

I was hoping you were going to write something that I have not considered, or that would change my knowledge graph. Something about enlightenment I didn't know.

 

[Truth]

3 minutes ago, electroBeam said:

@Truth Sure, but you have to admit, you were doing the same thing at the start, and then I followed.

What I got from your reply was emotional support is not needed, and my knowledge field cannot compute that.

I was hoping you were going to write something that I have not considered, or that would change my knowledge graph. Something about enlightenment I didn't know.

 

Yeah.. that's why this can be so paradoxical, there's A LOT of grey area, not everything is black and white as we would like it to be. 

An ego giving up on enlightenment (truthseeker) needs to realize how important it is in my knowledge graph, so I became a little assertive.

[electroBeam]

Just now, Truth said:

Yeah.. that's why this can be so paradoxical, there's A LOT of grey area, not everything is black and white as we would like it to be. 

An ego giving up on enlightenment (truthseeker) needs to realize how important it is in my knowledge graph, so I became a little assertive.

Ohhh, you were trying to reflect on the state an ego should be at that would help contribute to enlightenment. I kind of get it, kind of is all I need.

[ayokolomo]

7 hours ago, abrakamowse said:

@ayokolomo  Why do you think it has to be "intense"?

 

I did some intense stuff that took me even to a mental hospital to understand a lot of stuff that now I understand, like no free will, that the mind is dangerous thing to play with, etc. Right now I don't know the next step but I am willing to do whatever for it. It's about saving my real "self". I don't mind about my ego.

I realized that we are not our thoughts and we are not our egos when I was 6, the only problem is I didn't know what to do with that until now.

I "work" very hard to simply quiet my energy, emotions, body and mind.  To merely create space between the observer and the ego.  Yet this has been tremendously difficult and rewarding at the same time. 

While meditating my energy is pushing my body to move and I become restless.  My body wants to move it develops aches, then thirst and hunger.  Then fear and love and other emotions are felt.  All the while I am trying to create conditions so I can observe the ego.  For me this can be intensive work.

Have you seen the timetable for a vipassana meditation retreat?  This is only a beginner course yet I barely have the stability to try to accomplish that.  

I apologise if I make assumptions in regards to your mental health, as I am basing this on assumptions.  However once you start down this path without guidance, the intensity needed can be overwhelming.  

Have you seen people "catch the Holy Spirit" in church?  When a touch on the head can send people into convulsions.  This is actually a step towards enlightenment, but they lack the physical and emotional discipline needed.  The intensity of energy  is there but the other conditions for enlightenment are not.  So they talk of the bliss, but lack the discipline needed to harness that energy to create the conditions that enlightenment may occur.  

If you have a desire, but lack guidance then look at a vipassana retreat. Build your practice to the point where that looks workable.  I am on that path, but I am taking my time and smelling the roses on the the way.

[ayokolomo]

4 hours ago, step1 said:

I almost feel like there are people in this section of the forum who are trying to pull others away from this path.  Is this genuine concern for others or work of the ego? 

I deeply apologise if you feel that I was pulling you from the path.  

[TruthSeeker]

5 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Enjoy your chimpdom.

I was trying to make a point. That according to the way you explained things (before this last video) that we don't exist, then there is no point in trying to realize and live with the fact that that is true...we might as well enjoy the illusion.

Well now that youve changed your story and that we actually do exist. Or you're "re-explaining" what you meant, so now I don't want to be a chimp anymore !

I appreciate your clarification in this latest video because I really thought you meant we don't exist! I thought you meant it literally and from peoples responses to me it confirmed that they also understood it literally. 

 

[abrakamowse]

@ayokolomo  thanks for the insight. I was considering to take a retreat, maybe you are taking me on the right direction.

Thanks for the comment. And about the mental health, don't apologize. It's Ok, I'm going to post about that experience on my journal on the forum section where they are posted.

All good! This conversations are very useful, It's good to challenge all our points of view. It's a way to kill the ego too. I think.

[werlight]

6 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Enjoy your chimpdom.

jajjajajaja??

[Leo Gura]

@TruthSeeker There is no I as "TruthSeeker", as you presently think of yourself. So there's no solace for you. You don't appreciate how dangerous this enlightenment thing is. It will nuke you out of existence. The only thing you care about is you. And that you definitely doesn't exist.

The True You that does exist isn't going to comfort the little you that thinks it's making these decisions of being a chimp or not.

The danger with me telling you that you exist is that now that chimp you will say, "Oh! Phew! That's was a close call. I'm so glad I actually exist!" << And that's wrong. That chimp you doesn't exist.

So you may as well go back to being a chimp.

[fdrakely]

Technically speaking - isn't fear of enlightenment (love of illusion/love of being a chimp) just the ego's attempt at survival? Aren't all thoughts just a product of the ego, since "I" am the one who is aware of thoughts, wouldn't that make "me" separate from thoughts, and hence make all thoughts, including the ones in this post, creation of ego? Isn't every thought born from another thought? What makes someone want to pursue or avoid enlightenment? Wouldn't both be born from ego & thoughts? 


"I enjoy life as it is. I don't mind the illusion. I don't see the point of enlightenment. I choose to play the game of life" - Where does that come from? Are those not thoughts? 

"Life is hard. I want to be free from fears, desires, and suffering. Enlightenment seems like the right path. I want to know the truth" - Where does that come from? Are those not thoughts? 



Where do thoughts come from? Is that which notices a thought the same source which creates a thought? If you ask yourself in your head - "What is aware of this thought, what hears this thought, this thought is noticed by whom?" - Aren't those thoughts just the contents of the cup, while "YOU" are the cup? Isn't EVERYTHING which is capable of being noticed, aka EVERYTHING in life, including life itself - (thoughts, emotions, sensations, beliefs, fears, people, memories, pain, happiness, the 5 senses, the body, delusion, reality, the world, this post) - just contents of the cup? 


Is enlightenment a permanent shift in perspective, permanently having moment to moment awareness of ALL the contents of the cup? Only then to go play the game of life, like the 10th ox herding picture? Wouldn't that make life more enjoyable? But of course, isn't this just a thought born from a thought, another thing in the cup, being noticed by....

 

 

[Joyboy]

Well, If you want to be a chimp then you will probably experience life on chimp's level, if you want to experience life on god's level, be enlightened. Those experiences that no one can tell you, only you can do it for yourself. I can tell you how to get to NewYork, the way it looks like from my perspective, but it's never the same as you travel to NewYork yourself right?

As Leo said before, enjoy your chimp's journey.

[Extreme Z7]

@TruthSeeker Is this satire? I. . . I'm not sure if you're being serious or not. I actually believe you're just messing with us. LOL.

. . .

. . . .

. . . You are just messing with us right?

Edited February 23, 2016 by MaxWare1997
Your -> You're

[MonikaBcn]

On 22/2/2016 at 4:00 AM, TruthSeeker said:

I'm not experiencing suffering. I'm developing. I'm working on my career. 

That can change very easily. You get sick. Your baby gets sick. Your parents get sick. You business fails. You get hit by a truck, zombies arise!... not so amazing anymore.

Besides Shinzen Young said that if you knew how does it feel to be enlightened you would choose living  like that just for 1 day rather than having a 100 years of a happy life and I believe him

[werlight]

10 hours ago, TruthSeeker said:

I was trying to make a point. That according to the way you explained things (before this last video) that we don't exist, then there is no point in trying to realize and live with the fact that that is true...we might as well enjoy the illusion.

Well now that youve changed your story and that we actually do exist. Or you're "re-explaining" what you meant, so now I don't want to be a chimp anymore !

I appreciate your clarification in this latest video because I really thought you meant we don't exist! I thought you meant it literally and from peoples responses to me it confirmed that they also understood it literally. 

 

I could join the club and tell you to “ Enjoy your Chimpdom” but I'd rather describe a bit of what you will be missing .. it's up to you to decide when, at the end we all end up in the same place anyway.. 

This is what is feels like .. and it's just a small taste of what it really is: ( read it with your heart, Not your mind )

Everything seems alive, full of magic and absolutely beautiful. Your joy for life is so big that you just couldn't stop smiling. The present moment becomes so sweet that you are no longer concerned about the future. Fear and sadness disappear, and are replaced with compassion, joy and light. A light of love and compassion turns on somewhere inside your head and in my heart and from the moment you wake up until the moment you go to bed you remain in a continuous state of grace. Being and interacting with people becomes absolutely amazing and your body, and in particular your head will seem to radiate what feels like an energy of pure light

You realize that everything, from the biggest star to the smallest particle of dust is a gift of love to us and you become aware of the absolute beauty and perfection of everything around you.

You realize that paradise had always been in front of you. You realize that all the beauty, love and joy you will ever need is already inside you so you stop searching for any of these things outside. You feel complete. There is nothing left to desire so all your desires slowly disappear. The only desire you will have left is a deep desire to be present, a desire to enjoy the amazing beauty of everything around you.

You fall in love with yourself and you fall in love with life. You fall in love with what IS.

[Ayla]

@TruthSeeker , witness two humans waking up here: