I Need Some Help With Enlightenment, I Think I've Had A Breakthru Regarding Treatment Of Theory In Enlightenment

[Joseph Maynor]

All theory is dualistic, so all theories about reality can only point you to be reality and to notice that the belief that you are the mind is false.  But really, no more beliefs are needed to be clung to.  You can kind of have theories around to unhinge some unhealthy beliefs, but all in all enlightenment is 100 miles away from clinging to beliefs in a dogmatic way.

So, once you "get it", you don't really need the theory anymore, except maybe to correct the ego slipping old beliefs past you in their wake.  So, it is still useful to *review* the theory every once in a while to set the bubble in the level back to the center.

But the way you wanna live is to loosen the grip on theory and just let reality work through you, so to speak.  You become a source for Divine Creativity as you follow your intuitions and Muse more.  You will become unmoored and it will feel amazing, if this happens to you.

So, believing in enlightenment theories is not what we wanna be doing.  We just use the theory to unhinge unwholesome theories and to loosen our grip on theories more generally.  We do this so we can arms-length the Mind-Matrix, and live as true skeptics pursuing Eudaimonia.

Once you're in a state of Being, theory looks rather ridiculous, doesn't it?  You can see the scaffolding for what it is.  It's all incredibly dualistic, even the enlightenment theory too.  You can see it if you think about it from the perspective of being in the state of Being.  It's like eating a bowl of ice-cream while ruminating about the chemical composition of the ice-cream.  That would probably ruin the experience of just enjoying the ice-cream for 99% of people.  The chemical composition of the ice-cream is entirely irrelevant and even at odds with the goal of just sitting-down to enjoy some ice-cream.  Notice that even this statement is dualistic too.  There is probably some chemical-engineering geek out there somewhere who would actually love to do this!  See?  Few thoughts can be certain.

The reason why this came on for me is because while I was reviewing some of my notes about Enlightenment today, it just hit me out of nowhere that this stuff is just a tool to arms-length the Mind-Matrix.  It's a friggin' crowbar.  That's all the theory is.  After you use it, you don't really need it too often.  Maybe 2 times in your entire life perhaps.  But you still keep the crowbar around, because you never know when or if you might need to use it. 

There's nothing to cling to.  if you are clinging you are not really Being.  That's because only the Mind-Matrix clings.  If you are clinging, you are stuck in the Mind-Matrix still.  You gotta fully liberate yourself from that sonofagun!  That's where you enter the gateless gate.  

Seriously, not kidding, the theory looked ridiculous to me today for a second.  Like all of a sudden all your cherished prose turned into silly metaphor.  All dualistic metaphor.  Tools at best.  

Now I know what "not-knowing" means or doesn't mean rather.  It's not just another belief replacing knowing, it is a backing-out and/or extraction from the Mind-Matrix.

Video on point to watch:

 

Edited August 30, 2017 by Joseph Maynor

[Nahm]

@Joseph Maynor I have not found enlightenment to be theoretical. "We" "all" have different and valid experiences of course. 

[Heart of Space]

Man you have a bad case of being stuck in your head.  Based your posts you're overthinking this far too much, man.  

[John Iverson]

56 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

All theory is dualistic, so all theories about reality can only point you to be reality and to notice that the belief that you are the mind is false.  But really, no more beliefs are needed to be clung to.  You can kind of have theories around to unhinge some unhealthy beliefs, but all in all enlightenment is 100 miles away from clinging to beliefs in a dogmatic way.

So, once you "get it", you don't really need the theory anymore, except maybe to correct the ego slipping old beliefs past you in their wake.  So, it is still useful to *review* the theory every once in a while to set the bubble in the level back to the center.

But the way you wanna live is to loosen the grip on theory and just let reality work through you, so to speak.  You become a source for Divine Creativity as you follow your intuitions and Muse more.

So, believing in enlightenment theories is not what we wanna be doing.  We just use the theory to unhinge unwholesome theories and to loosen our grip on theories more generally.  We do this so we can arms-length the Mind-Matrix, and live as true skeptics pursuing Eudaimonia.

Once you're in a state of Being, theory looks rather ridiculous, doesn't it?  You can see the scaffolding for what it is.  It's all incredibly dualistic, even the enlightenment theory too.  You can see it if you think about it from the perspective of being in the state of Being.  It's like eating a bowl of ice-cream while ruminating about the chemical composition of the ice cream.  That would probably ruin the experience of just enjoying the ice cream for 99% of people.  The chemical composition of the ice cream is entirely irrelevant and even at odds with the goal of just sitting down to enjoy some ice cream.  Notice that even this statement is dualistic too.  There is probably some chemical engineering geek out there somewhere who would actually love to do this!  

The reason why this came on for me is because while I was reviewing some of my notes about Enlightenment today, it just hit me out of nowhere that this stuff is just a tool to arms-length the Mind-Matrix.  It's a friggin' crowbar.  That's all the theory is.  After you use it, you don't really need it too often.  Maybe 2 times in your entire life perhaps.  But you still keep the crowbar around, because you never know when or if you might need to use it.  Like that.  There's nothing to cling to.  if you are clinging you are not really Being.  That's because only the Mind-Matrix clings.  If you are clinging, you are stuck in the Mind-Matrix still.  You gotta fully liberate yourself from that sonofagun!  That's where you enter the gateless gate.  

Seriously, not kidding, the theory looked ridiculous to me today for a second.  Like all of a sudden all your cherished prose turned into silly metaphor.  It's all metaphor.  Dualistic metaphor.  Tools at best.  A good crowbar for when one is needed.

Make a theory based on your true self... you are the one who will share to others about your own wisdom... the thoeries of others would help you... but it is only a guide in a the first two three 4 steps ... 

[Nahm]

@Joseph Maynor Just curious, but, have you started looking into quantum physics?

[Joseph Maynor]

2 hours ago, Heart of Space said:

Man you have a bad case of being stuck in your head.  Based your posts you're overthinking this far too much, man.  

I'm telling you I don't need anymore theory.  It's over.  I got it.  I hit it.

There is nothing more that ever needs to be said to me about enlightenment.

The gateless gate has been gone through.

And I'll tell you this too -- this is crazy.  Enlightenment has nothing to do with psychedelics either.

Edited August 30, 2017 by Joseph Maynor

[Joseph Maynor]

@Nahm Not yet.  I don't think theory has anything to do with enlightenment.  Quite the contrary.

Even theory of enlightenment has nothing to do with enlightenment.

Enlightenment is simply grokking, not just understanding, but deeply grokking, the limitations and influences of the mind.  And once you see through that -- you see very clearly what remains, and that is now in high-relief.  This is also important too, because it's an experience that you only get when you deeply grok the limitations and influences of the mind.  The residue that remains once the Mind-Matrix has been backed-out.  And this has nothing to do with psychedelics, see?  Psychedelics don't appear to be relevant.  

Once you get it in your bones, not just conceptually, that's when you get the shift.  That's what happened to me.  I got it today, but I was saying it for months.  So, that inability to un-see is now there regarding the limitations and influences of the mind.  That is what really caused the shift.  We'll see if it sticks, maybe tomorrow I lose it.  I'm totally sober too.

Edited August 30, 2017 by Joseph Maynor

[Joseph Maynor]

2 hours ago, John Iverson said:

Make a theory based on your true self... you are the one who will share to others about your own wisdom... the thoeries of others would help you... but it is only a guide in a the first two three 4 steps ... 

I agree with this.  How could I ever compare my enlightenment experience with yours or anybody else's?  Not possible.  I could describe it, but it would sound trite and cliche. 

[Heart of Space]

19 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

I'm telling you I don't need anymore theory.  It's over.  I got it.  I hit it.

There is nothing more that ever needs to be said to me about enlightenment.

The gateless gate has been gone through.

And I'll tell you this too -- this is crazy.  Enlightenment has nothing to do with psychedelics either.

That's great, man.  Seems like everyone is enlightened on this forum these days except me.  

[Dodo]

1 hour ago, Heart of Space said:

That's great, man.  Seems like everyone is enlightened on this forum these days except me.  

Nah man we are all one being. If you were in Joseph's shoes you'd be saying exactly what Joseph say. Its already the case. If you are in my shoes, you'd say and do exactly what I say and do. It's already the case.

It's just a thought that you have a separate identity. That thought can still be there, but that don't mean you're not enlightened. Hehe

[Heart of Space]

Just now, Dodo said:

Nah man we are all one being. If you were in Joseph's shoes you'd be saying exactly what Joseph say. Its already the case. If you are in my shoes, you'd say and do exactly what I say and do. It's already the case.

It's just a thought that you have a separate identity. That thought can still be there, but that don't mean you're not enlightened. Hehe

I've heard this all before many times.  Everybody is enlightened blah blah blah blah blah blah.

[Dodo]

10 minutes ago, Heart of Space said:

I've heard this all before many times.  Everybody is enlightened blah blah blah blah blah blah.

It's not blah blah, it's an invitation to see

[Heart of Space]

Just now, Dodo said:

It's not blah blah, it's an invitation to see

Has saying that to anyone ever worked for anyone ever?  I've never seen it work.  Your repeating talking points that other spiritual people have said.  I've heard it all my friend, no need to be a parrot.  

[Dodo]

22 minutes ago, Heart of Space said:

Has saying that to anyone ever worked for anyone ever?  I've never seen it work.  Your repeating talking points that other spiritual people have said.  I've heard it all my friend, no need to be a parrot.  

Nah, it doesnt work. You are the one supposed to contemplate. How do you know it's not helping you to have a point hammered home?

What can I do @Heart of Space when my monkey mind is almost only pointers... Because I've immersed myself in this long enough. It's good to have monkey mind full of pointers. I think that's the purpose of the teachings perhaps.

I constantly get Leo, Mooji,  Ekhart, Rupert, Ramana pointers as thoughts that aid the process.

Then when you follow those, perhaps you realize something. Or no-thing. But the process is never over. Process just is. 

Contemplate what separates you from me, if we are both not the body, nor any object that can be experienced (this includes your current separate subjective existence as a human - this is also an appearance, have you seen?). (I assume you're versed in Neti Neti) @Heart of Space

 

Edited August 30, 2017 by Dodo

[Dodo]

33 minutes ago, Heart of Space said:

Has saying that to anyone ever worked for anyone ever?  I've never seen it work.  Your repeating talking points that other spiritual people have said.  I've heard it all my friend, no need to be a parrot.  

You do not need new pointers. You need to look at the ones that are already there again and again untl you build a good enough mind structure that will be then called " enlightened" - there's no such thing, because enlightenment is nothingness and you are that.

I like to think of pointers as magnets that pull in the right direction.

Parrots are good. Reminder...

Btw it can only work if you contemplate it.... Not take as belief or as an ultimate statement that will somehow grow you magic wings and you will start farting gold.

Edited August 30, 2017 by Dodo

[Leo Gura]

@Joseph Maynor Keep going. You're still a million miles from enlightenment. But good newbie insight

[Joseph Maynor]

@Leo Gura Cool.    It's weird how they hit you out of nowhere.  This is my third major one.

Edited August 30, 2017 by Joseph Maynor

[Joseph Maynor]

2 hours ago, Heart of Space said:

That's great, man.  Seems like everyone is enlightened on this forum these days except me.  

If you think you are not enlightened, that's a limiting belief.  That shows that you are in the Mind-Matrix.   

When you are enlightened you realize that no belief has any power over you.

Beliefs are just dualistic excuses.  We give them power.  But really, we can always act in the face of any belief.  The Mind-Matrix just makes us think it is hard to.  That's the trap.

Edited August 30, 2017 by Joseph Maynor

[Leo Gura]

@Joseph Maynor Major what? What exactly are you experiencing?

Have you realized that reality doesn't exist?

[Joseph Maynor]

18 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

@Joseph Maynor Major what? What exactly are you experiencing?

Have you realized that reality doesn't exist?

Reality stays the same, it's beliefs about it that change.  The content stays exactly the same, but the attachments are what change.  How things are clung to, and the depth of your awareness of the personality and ways of the ego -- these are key.

I'm not sure I am nothing.  I feel more like no-thing.  Like, whatever I am is not a thing.  Experience is not a thing.  Like that.  So, I wouldn't make the positive claim that I am nothing.  Or that I am any conceptual designation.  I hope this makes sense, as this is quasi-philosophical.  I wouldn't say that reality doesn't exist.  I would arms-length that belief.  I would also arms-length the belief that it does.  I have no reason to overlay that dualistic opposition on my experience.  That's one of the epiphanies I had, is that this is unwise.  See?  My result might be deeper than you appreciate.  When you say reality doesn't exist, the Mind-matrix has you by the balls.  The key to enlightenment is to back-out of the Mind-Matrix, probably at the right time though, as theory kind of sets up the ball for this to happen.  You have to realize the limitations of dualism fully to realize all of its traps.  But once you gain some distance from the Mind-Matrix, you just experience pure peace and joy and very little monkey-mind at all.  I rarely have monkey-mind now.  But I also meditate like 5 times a day for 15 minutes each.  Meditation really seems to keep me nice and integrated, especially my body with my mind.  This transition has been taking place with me for about 1 week actually.  It's almost like I am totally operating intuitively now.  I feel unmoored.  Super open.  Relaxed.  Not fearless, not fearful.  Not cocky, not wussy.  Cheerful.  Giddy.  I don't feel like God.  I just feel totally at peace.  No insecurities, calm.  Happy, unusually happy.  My creativity and thinking on my feet has boomed -- like spontaneous humor.  I used to kind of suck at that and I've shocked myself at how witty I've been the last couple of days.  Creative is the word.  And also happy and loving.  It's hard to describe.  These all sound like cliches, I'm sure.  It's not surprising that dualistic language describes enlightenment very poorly.  It's almost like you wanna say "no words can describe", and you'd be right!  Words are dualistic.  When I conceptualize enlightenment, I just ruined it.  That's our paradox.  I would point to it if you could crawl into my experience so I could show you.  But even then, to say I would point to it is dualistic.  See?  Duality has to be deeply understood before you get the big-pop, big-shift where you can't un-see all the ramifications of the ways that the Mind-Matrix sabotages you with *need to believe* and *clinging to beliefs*, as well as warping your reality with duality in a myriad of ways.  You gotta have one of those "you can't un-explode the grenade" moments of insight and shift.  If you can put the pin back in the grenade, that doesn't count!  It's gotta really blow up and whack you over the head.  That's what happened to me.  It's like discovering a year into your marriage that the woman you married isn't a woman.  You can't un-see that.  Like that.  Oh shit!  Really!  Yeah, really!  One of the biggest default mistakes that we make is that we naturally cling too tightly to the Mind-Matrix.  Enlightenment really is just a loosening of that grip, and all the benefits that come from extracting ourselves from the Mind-Matrix.  It's like the break-up of a relationship in a way.  My first enlightenment experience in March of this year had really heavy overtones of that.  But you gotta do it, otherwise the Mind-Matrix will stunt your life, and cause you all kinds of suffering.  "Need to cling tightly to beliefs" is one of the worst Mind-Matrix traps.  It's a dualistic limiting-belief that the Mind-Matrix fools you into thinking is true, but actually it holds no force over you whatsoever.

2 things:

(1) Insights into what the Mind-Matrix is and how it operates;

(2) How beliefs are clung to.  And what is actually believed in.  You can intellectually say you don't believe but until your *actual* belief changes, you're talking about different things altogether.  So, actual shifts in belief also causes the experiences.

Video on point to watch:

 

Edited August 31, 2017 by Joseph Maynor