Are Trolls Real?

[Joseph Maynor]

19 hours ago, Juan Cruz Giusto said:

There is more to reality than your personal perception. If you close your eyes and I pull out a gun, shoot you and kill you, you are for sure dead, whether you are a zen master or a homeless guy. That the gun, the zen master and the world they inhabit are made out of consciousness or mind is another matter. 

The difference between a dream and waking reality is that one is personal and the latter is shared by others. If we want to formulate metaphysical conclusions, saying that there is no difference between a dream and this reality, taking into account that other people's perspectives, is IPO nonsense. 

Notice that I'm not saying that there is a world outside of consciousness nor I'm a materialist. I think idealism makes much more sense but there is more to consciousness (or the world) than what our mind perceives. Rupert Spira is quite enlightened and have similar view, so does Bernardo Kastrup and so does Ken Wilber. 

Or we can say that everything is consciousness and me, others and the world don't exist, everything is just an illusion and we are just Maya and end of discussion. And it seems to be true to enlightened people. But if we want to make sense of our world this paradigm is just useless. 

Also any metaphysical conclusions we make are not non-dual awareness, they are made within the relative egoic human life, language, and theories -- in monkey-ville!  So, trolls cannot exist in non-dual awareness because that's an egoic distinction.  Whatever "trolls" could be in non-dual awareness is part-and-parcel of everything else that is real, and it is what is -- since reality is a-conceptual.  So, what is real would be something like the visuals of a troll but not trolls, but even that individuation would be egoic because you are piecing-out an image from non-dual reality thereby adding a little monkey-augmentation to non-dual awareness, super-imposing a little monkey individuation belief on non-dual awareness.  So, anything we say in language is within the relative egoic pragmatic truth, not absolute Truth.  All beliefs are existentially false.  This is a humbling insight.  Of course we can say a lot of relative things about non-duality, but they are all true with a lower-case t not true with an upper-case T if that makes sense.   So, again, we can say a lot of monkey-chatter about reality, but it ain't reality.  Reality is something that just is without distinction, and even this sentence has to eat itself.  This is why it is important to be the Truth not theorize about the Truth.  If you wanna theorize about reality, you're gonna be engaging in theory-scaffolding (which can be useful training-wheels to guide novices or those learning about enlightenment) or truth with a lower-case t -- relative human truth, a biased monkey-mind perspective on reality (or theory of reality) not reality itself.  For the purposes of my post here, you can consider a theory to be roughly a set of beliefs or proposed beliefs.

Edited August 17, 2017 by Joseph Maynor

[Nahm]

@Joseph Maynor how do you know what you just said?

[Joseph Maynor]

3 hours ago, Nahm said:

@Joseph Maynor how do you know what you just said?

There is no me.  Reality just is.  But even these claims have to eat themselves.  Writing just happened, but even this claim has to eat itself.  Reality is of a piece, but even this claim has to eat itself.  Absolute Truth is a tricky bear.  Yes, this too must devour itself.  What did Leo say -- a cat unraveling a yarn which unravels the cat?  I totally get that.  But even this belief has to eat itself.  All beliefs are existentially false.  Yes this one too must dine on itself.  Everything said in my prior post must eat itself too, like a snake swallowing its own tail.  At best it can be relative truth or scaffolding.  This claim doesn't have to eat itself since it is within the egoic illusion.  I have dropped back down into the human illusion now where absolute Truth hides in plain view.  Hey, if it's just us we can do whatever we want right?  A bunch of hairless-monkeys creating some culture and a little beliefs.  Why not?  It's better than watching other monkeys play charades on TV.  Ain't nothin' wrong with relative truth per se, unless it tries to ape its older brother, absolute Truth.  Everything we believe is relative truth at best.  That's what's special about enlightenment, the rules change -- the carpet is pulled out from under our little monkey feet, and we can't wrap our little primate-minds around it.  We might exclaim --what the hell is happening to me?  Well . . . .  I would say there is no you, but you know the rejoinder -- this belief must chow-down on itself too.  Lots of giving with one hand and taking away with the other hand happening here.  Reality is counter-intuitive because it is non-dual.

Edited August 17, 2017 by Joseph Maynor

[Juan Cruz Giusto]

@Joseph Maynor I agree. That is the point of separating Absolute Truths with relative ones... Yes, everything is non-dual and me, you, trolls, Leo, my mom and a zen master don't exist. But, and in my opinion, it is a really big but, is that it doesn't offer a practical explanation to reality. Yes, realizing this Truth will give you unconditional happiness, real freedom and love, but, IPO falls flat when trying to explain the reality we seem to live. That is why I just don't share the view that "if I close my eyes, the world disappears". That is a mixing between what is Absolute and what is relative. If you believe that you believe that there is nothing outside of perception and your own mind... and that is madness. For practical purposes, that statement just doesn't stand. Is as I believe you don't exist because I cannot see you... see, it's stupid... It's like saying that if Pikachu closes it's eyes, the whole Pokemon world disappears (don't say that pikachu and the world are distinctions in consciousness )

And please, when I refer to the word "you" or "I", I'm referring to the body/mind, not the Ultimate/God/Non-Dual Awareness/Consciousness/etc,etc,etc... We have to separate the Absolute from the Relative... If you want to unite them I suggest people to study Bernardo Kastrup and Rupert's Spira new book, The Nature of Consciousness or something like that... It gives you a really nice metaphysical explanation in which everything fits. Check it out

PD. I'm meditating to realize Absolute Truth or Reality, but also it's critical to form a practical worldview which explains the phenomena that happens around us. 

 

Edited August 17, 2017 by Juan Cruz Giusto

[Joseph Maynor]

7 hours ago, Lord Bwyra said:

@Leo Gura With all due respect, it sounds like you have fallen deeper into the clutches of your ego which can happen when you start tripping too much on your own kool-aid. Nothing seems real anymore except within the boundaries of some presumed hallucinatory existence. And you start thinking everything is possibly real (or not) and there is no objective reality anymore. I've also noticed you've adopted a very anti-rationalist outlook.

But I don't think you really believe that.

In fact I think you are projecting and it is you who cannot seem to escape the rationalist approach because however much you try and whatever you do, ultimately you comprehend with the reasoning capabilities of your brain in order to make sense of your experiences. And communicate them to others via social media. Yet you are trying so hard to grasp all this consciousness stuff and you have read somewhere these cool sounding things like there is much more to this "thing" than enlightenment. What the hell does that even mean?

When you get away from your computer and all this noise and close your eyes in stillness and silence, you know that this bullshit version of reality you have concocted is all just a game in your head. Yes we are all connected and everything is vibrating and we get some intense sensual shit happening with our trips but there is an ACTUAL world out there. No this is not some dream. That's the thing that happens when we sleep at night. Yes someone people do live in this world as if it is a dream but that's not the same thing as it actually being a dream. You know that's horse shit. So why do you pretend it's not? I don't get it. Trolls? Are you fucking kidding me? Cmon man.

I personally don't believe there is such a thing as a permanently enlightened person. That's total bullshit. It's all just temporary states that the brain produces. Yes we can get there more often when we learn to relax our bodies and brains more with yoga, meditation, meds, tantra, etc. This allows life to flow through us and not get stuck in this mental constipation (what most people are doing before they get on the self-actualization path) vs mental masturbation (what most people do when they start tripping too much and reading Castoneda and all this spiritual new age wuuwuu nonsense).

We still have to live in a world where we gotta pay for our lifestyles and eat and piss and do the gardening. So perhaps it's more useful to think of enlightened behavior instead of becoming some king of lalaland. I think most of these so-called enlightened gurus are just good writers and charismatic salesmen who have chosen vedanta (non-dual awareness) as their niche. They are just normal people like all of us. Why aren't they scanning their brains to see if something special is going on? Because they wouldn't do it. They have shit to sell.

Meanwhile children are starving.
Technology is progressing.
Wars are being fought.
People are living their lives, trying to understand love and how they messed up so bad.
Animals are in the wild looking for food and taking care of their young.

Me and you are using technology as we speak that was created by real people who don't spend most of their time playing video games or playing these enlightenment games (same shit). Everything you touch and use has been created by a big company with a really wealthy dude at the top. Think about it.

Right now I'm going through your Life Purpose course and starting to wonder if this guy even believes his own stuff anymore.

I hope you don't sabotage what you have created my friend. Your work is too important.
You have created this great place of gathering for people who want to live a new kind of life.
There are a lot of people on your forums looking for answers on basic shit.

Come back.

Or maybe I'm the one projecting

Great points.  But to be fair to Leo -- and pardon me if I am wrong -- but I assume a big part of Leo's life-purpose is taking the deep-dive into enlightenment.  Just a hunch, I don't know that for certain.  Life-purpose is a very personal thing.  I know how fond Leo is about enlightenment and the Truth.  I would guess that he loves it, he's passionate about it.  And good for him.  That's a perfect element for his life-purpose if that's the case.  If you're gonna chase anything, chase what lights you up on the inside, what you're passionate about.  So, he's gonna take enlightenment further than I would for example, because my life-purpose is different, although there is an intersection -- in the Venn-Diagram sense -- between all of our life-purposes.  But those areas of commonality change in size depending on who we are comparing from a life-purpose standpoint.   (I happen to get my kicks from Philosophy and writing, but that's just me. ) Hey -- everybody loves ice-cream, but Ben and Jerry had a passion for it and took the deep-dive into ice-cream.  I could go on and on.  Wine anyone?  There's another deep rabbit-hole.  Some people could care less about wine.  But some people dedicate their entire lives and careers to studying wine and pairing it with all the different kinds of foods, etc.  It's a friggin' science in and of itself that could take a lifetime to master.  I hope I didn't belabor this point.  Sometimes I get carried away, and I am passionate about life-purpose right now (and I hope for forever because it's awesome).

Now, on another issue.  And I hope I don't come off as sounding too arrogant here -- but a lot of people don't seem to understand this so I will state it here.  The point is not to throw the baby out with the bathwater regarding rational thinking, it's to understand what rational thinking is, what it isn't, and when and where it is useful to employ it in certain situations, and when rational thinking has no jurisdiction as it were.  This is subtle, but it has helped me.  In relative truth and for scaffolding work, rational thinking can be useful.  For being non-dual reality, rational thinking *can* set you apart from enlightenment by 100 miles.  So, it's not rational thinking that is bad, it is how we are clinging to it and interpreting it in certain situations that is stupid or bad.  Let's use a better word, a nicer word -- unwise.  Kinda like guns don't kill people, we do.  Or concepts are not bad, it's how we cling to and interpret them that is bad in certain situations.  Same kinda issue in all those scenarios -- It's us that is wrong!  But due to denial, we don't like to acknowledge that, so we blame something else.  It's how we are clinging sub-optimally per the situations that we are in that is bad.  Ok, so I'm off my soapbox now.  I just needed to interject this because I see it come up over and over again, and I'm not saying that you committed any of these "offenses" haha.  I just responded to your post because I saw you raised the issue of rational thinking.  See, now I get to stand around eating doughnuts and write everybody else a ticket like a traffic-cop too!  Gives my ego a little boost, a little goose to the ole identity-complex.

Edited August 17, 2017 by Joseph Maynor

[Geromekevin]

@Leo Gura  Let me tell you my problem:

If you burn your hand in the hallucination it is going to be burned across all hallucinations. You can trip balls on a substance, your hand will stay fucked up.

It would also be nice to know how you mean that reality is a hallucination. Do you mean its subjective to everyone? Do you mean it's a user interface (a la Donald Hoffmann ?)

 

[Leo Gura]

I see a lot of folks here triggered by this notion of "hallucination". Good... that means your web of belief is being disrupted.

Definition of hallucination from Google:

"an experience involving the apparent perception of something not present."

That is PRECISELY, EXACTLY, LITERALLY what all of reality is. Something which is nothing.

Stop arguing about nonsense and go self-inquire (or do some 5-MeO) and see for yourselves.

Hallucination = Illusion = A Dream = Maya = Idealism = Infinite Mind = Enlightenment = God = I AM = The Self = No Self = Nirvana = Buddha = Christ = Shiva = Shakti = Void = Reality = Truth = Absolute = The One = Nonduality = Duality = Being = Infinity = Consciousness = The Dao = Mu

Ya'll got some silly notions of enlightenment.

"All that we see or seem is but a dream within a dream." -- Edgar Allan Poe

[Heart of Space]

9 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I see a lot of folks here triggered by this notion of "hallucination".

Definition of hallucination from Google:

"an experience involving the apparent perception of something not present."

That is PRECISELY, EXACTLY, LITERALLY what all of reality is. Something which is nothing.

Stop arguing about nonsense and go self-inquire (or do some 5-MeO) and see for yourselves.

Hallucination = illusion = Maya = idealism = Infinite Mind = enlightenment = God = The Self = No Self = Nirvana = Buddha = Christ = Shiva = Void = Reality = Truth = Absolute = The One = Nonduality = Duality = Being = Infinity = Consciousness

Pretty weak response, dawg.  You literally were trying to say that a dream is the same as ordinary reality while blowing off what makes them destinctive.  There's been some pretty thoughtful posts in here and your response is go snort drugs.   Lol, come on, man.  

Edited August 17, 2017 by Heart of Space

[RichardY]

Don't Trolls turn to stone in daylight?

 

[Leo Gura]

3 minutes ago, Heart of Space said:

blowing off what makes them destinctive.

All distinctions are illusion!

Hello???

What do you think NONDUALITY means? Lol

ONE, as in not two. Not distinct. Everything distinct is relative!

[Leo Gura]

@Maxx David Hume answered your question best:

Quote

"You can't derive an ought from an is."

This is basic basic stuff guys. Come on. I thought you were more advanced than this.

This should be Kindergarten stuff for you

[Juan Cruz Giusto]

In the meantime we are stuck in this "hallucinated" reality which is beautifully constructed and in which no pictures of a troll have been taken. 

Keep it practical and be happy. You do you Leo but I don't agree how you are talking about this whole issue but, you probably don't care... me neither. Saying that everything is an omission and hallucination is not spirituality, it's just metaphysical mambo-jumbo that doesn't help in any way IMO. 

Anyways, I'll go for whatever is absolutely true which is: I don't know the real substance of reality and I won't stop till I find it. My perceptions are just an indirect way of knowing. 

 

 

[Echoes]

All we have is experience. Whoever is experiencing this text right now: If you look away or close your eyes, where is your experience of the actualized.org forum on the computer screen? This experience here right now could not be without you. The "mind" says the text must still be there, because it's whole nature is to deduce everything that appears as a causal chain and logical laws. But only because there is an apparent causality, doesn't mean that there is an "actual" causality in the way the mind interprets the reason for continuity in events. It is not that hard to imagine that reality is able to create everything it wants without the need for the type of causality the mind sees as necessary. It is reality after all! It exists out of nowhere in a mysterious way! So why do you say "No, for a continuity in events like [closing eyes] -> [opening eyes] there has to be something real there in the meantime? Why do you set this condition as essential in a mysteriously appearing reality that IS without any logical reason for it to be in the first place? I think some people underestimate reality

Edited August 17, 2017 by Echoes

[Leo Gura]

@Juan Cruz Giusto It's no accident you don't agree. That's the only thing separating duality from nonduality.

You are grossly underestimating this thing called "enlightenment".

[Little Plant]

It takes max one person to know Truth

It takes at least two people to ruin it

Edited August 18, 2017 by Little Plant

[Joseph Maynor]

For what it's worth, this is what I do.  I balance non-dual being with egoic-illusion depending on what kind of situation I'm in.  Sometimes I need some ego, sometimes I need a little bit of dissolving into Being.  Like a chef seasoning a dish, I add just the right mixture of illusion (ego) and Truth (no-ego) into each moment to advance my life-purpose agenda and to remain calm and peaceful regardless of circumstance.  I hope this doesn't cheapen enlightenment, that's not my intention.  Enlightenment is not only the existential truth, it's also a superb TOOL to be employed in a moment along with ego (which is also a superb tool), and it gives you a huge sense of being grounded and emotional-mastery.  Ego is Yang, no-ego is Yin.  The Tao is the proper harmonization of Yin and Yang in the moment.  I don't know if this helps or confuses you.  There's a practical side to enlightenment.  Yes, it's the existential truth, but it's also a tool in the toolkit to be used when the situation calls for it.  This is how it's all worked out for me.  But as you can see from my posts I still appreciate existential Truth, but I'm not gonna sit around all day and do only that with my time.  I couldn't even if I wanted to.  I got lots of projects on my plate that need doing in the real world and I gotta be nose to the grindstone with this stuff or I ain't gonna get it all done.  I work all the time, 7 days a week probably at least 10 hours a day on my business and life-purpose work.  I wish I could explore more of the psychedelic stuff someday, and maybe I will.   I had one really bad trip one time that scared the shit out of me.  Fetal-position scared, ya feel me!  No joke.  So, I get it man -- "reality" can flip inside-out on psychedelics.  For some reason I wanted to drive my car and I didn't even know where I wanted to go.  If you're gonna trip, you might want to give your car keys to someone else.  I was 5150 (so I designate here, not legally) for a while, and then I collapsed into the ground into a pool of colors, and I still don't know how it happened, but I ended up in my bed with the covers over me in a fetal position slowly coming down, shivering with fear.  I think I promised myself like 1000 times that if I made it out alive I would never do this again.  But of course . . . I did.  I never had a trip that bad though, but that one scarred me.  It made me realize that if you got any demons, insecurities, anxiety, depression, or any paranoia or anything like that, watch out with psychedelics.  Baby step it.  You don't wanna have a come to Jesus moment in the worst possible way.  Having no footing in reality is what is really scary.  You can't make heads or tails of things.  It's existentially terrifying.  Well, not always, but it was in that instance.  Sometimes it's absolutely spectacular.  But ya'll know about that.  I don't really fool with drugs anymore.  Sobriety is actually best for personal development work.  Healthy, sober, strong is what I wanna be (need to be) in order to get my dream-life handled.  So, that's what I am shooting for long-term.  But I make no judgments about drugs.  Again, it is us that acts unwisely, drugs are just tools like guns.  Sometimes using the tool is useful sometimes it is unwise, it depends on the situation.  The problem is that we make shit decisions like 90% of the time.  That's our real problem.  So, instead of blaming our own lack of self-control and discipline, we scapegoat drugs.  That's just like us -- we blame everything and everyone but ourselves and we rationalize up-the-yin-yang!  Ever notice how you and others rationalize things?  It's nuts!  Where the hell did that gene come from and how can we de-program that?  Someone will get Bill Gates rich if they crack that problem.  You want big money, there you go!  It just fell in your lap.  Get busy.

Videos on point:

 

Edited August 18, 2017 by Joseph Maynor

[Juan Cruz Giusto]

@Leo Gura Maybe. But also, maybe, it's just the case that I don't like your way of explaining the world... Many spiritual masters don't talk about the matter in this way and I just prefer their descriptions... Nothing personal though. 

Anyways, every non-enlightened being is grossly underestimating enlightenment. There is no way anyone could think about it... 

 

[Heart of Space]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

All distinctions are illusion!

Hello???

What do you think NONDUALITY means? Lol

ONE, as in not two. Not distinct. Everything distinct is relative!

Love you, Leo, but do you really even believe that?  As in, are you experiencing a completely non-distinctive reality  the reality this moment?  Or are there many different parts in your reality that are distinct from another which in all creates a complex reality?  If there were no distinctions you wouldn't be able to read this sentence of distinct letters and words and then respond to me.  

I understand non-duality and what its implications are.  Everything could be made of the same substance of awareness, but awareness still somehow can paint a complex reality.  Without some type of distinction between 'this' and 'that' reality as it is wouldn't exist.  

This stuff might seem like kindergarten level spiritual stuff  The difference is that I don't parrot what I hear, nor do I just go with what is generally agreed upon in my social environment at the time.  I go with my own reasoning and what I know and understand myself.  I'm skeptical (but also open minded) of everything I hear.  You need to be with spirituality, there's far too much bullshit and delusion to not be skeptical. 

[Leo Gura]

@Maxx A horse is a horse of course, of course. No one is claiming it's a unicorn. It's just a hallucinated horse.

You asking questions and being perplexed about why a hallucinated horse doesn't behave like a unicorn is a problem of your own creation. You imposed that ridiculous assumption, and now you're confused about it. Of course! Stop doing that.

BEING implies no particular way of behaving.

You can realize that reality is a hallucination, and go right back to walking your dog, opening your mail, chopping wood, eating Cheetos.

The TRUTH is irrelevant to life within the hallucination. That's the whole point of LIBERATION. You are liberated to do whatever you wanna do. And survival in this hallucination has certain demands like food, water, shelter, sex, etc.

If you really wish to entirely transcend the self-survival instinct -- for shits and giggles -- you can. Become so enlightened your body falls dead. Then your wish will come true. That's what Mahavira decided to do, and countless others. He just went into the forest and quietly starved himself to death. The hallucinated horse will fall dead no matter what. Because all hallucinations are temporary.

Hallucinations behave exactly as human beings behave! They spend most of their time struggling to survive, because they don't really exist. The reason you struggle so much is not because you are real, but precisely because you are unreal!

The problem here is that you're failing to make a paradigm shift. You're still trying to evaluate the nondual paradigm from the dual paradigm, which obviously looks silly, as you've pointed out.

Empty your cup first.

[Leo Gura]

59 minutes ago, Heart of Space said:

Love you, Leo, but do you really even believe that?

It doesn't matter what I believe.

I've experienced nonduality.