Why Are The Majority Of The Youth So Shallow Minded?

[Lorcan]

Recently a friend of mine invited me to a skype conversation with about 5-6 people in it

Where I could I chipped in giving my discourse on topics that were being discussed. (Shallow discussion) And I pushed some topics regarding what is wrong with the society we live in, that life does not have to be shallow and being a human being can be so much more than the current notions of what life is for a person (a mediocre life that is). I also pushed some stoic ideals (such as to live in accordance with nature, to hate another person is not in accordance with nature and that we were born to work together and to love mankind/one another.)

An indivdual was interested in why I had the views I had.

So we had an hour long skype call in which we debated

-Whether or not people are born"bad". In which she thought people were born bad and I did not.

-Whether or not life was inherently "shit"

-What is a system (definition wars)

- Is "Ignorance is bliss" a truth. (I argued against this)

Through the entire course of the argument. She had she geuinely beleived the following beleifs as truth.

-People are born assholes/bad.

-Life is inherently shit and miserable with highlights of joy here and there.

-Ignorance is bliss relative to living a good life.

-That life is just bad and "It's just life" mentality argument regarding the unfairness and evil in life.

She also mentioned earlier in the conversation she was communist when she was joking around by randomly saying "Heil Hitler" and then "nah mate I am a comie" In which a joked back "I am stalin man myself" "Gulag or go home."

 

After I asked whether the following statements were true "People are born assholes, Life is Inherently shit. And Ignorance is bliss"

And after she said that she beleived all these to be true I said she was full of shit. (I am apologise if that was close-minded and shallow in itself to say that an opposing opinion is "full of shit" but I do not think you get 3 statements that are more anti-actualization then the ones she said.)

 

The argument shocked me. Just wow. I thought I had seen the most shallow people already in my school , where in most people I encounter have this "I dont care about the big picture of living , my grand goal in life , or the progression of society. I only care about my own happiness, I only care about the short term and whatever I can do to squirm to achieve some of that instant gratification" 

But this was something else, this 15-16 year old genuinely believed "ignorance is bliss". How long is until all the shallow masses adopt this beleif? Ignorance is bliss sound like something out of George Orwell 1984.

It was a good a good debate for 20 minutes, but then it degraded into abstract argument and she began bringing up pieces of history I did not know much about such as the vietnam war and saying thing such as x y z generals who were stupid for doing a b c , and began spewing out a bunch of facts I would of had to beleive to be true to make the argument work. So I then objected to her use of refering un-briefly to history in arguments against a person who does not know that piece of history well. How was I know what she was saying was true about the vietnam war?

After the argument was over I posted a varation of the above in the groups conversation and added at the end "Good argument, but not cigar" as I extracted barely any value from it.

Soon after she kicked me from the group.

 

Is Humanity doomed to be shallow?

Are debates even worth getting into. i starting a debate worth it?

 

-

 

Edited August 8, 2017 by Lorcan

[Christian]

Starting a debate is rarely worth it. People are generally closed minded and are biases to hold certain beliefs they don't want to question. Before starting a debate, always be aware of the purpose of why you wish to even have a debate. Is it because you want to promote how great your views self-actualization are? Or do you genuinely care to understand different perspectives and integrate them to your model of the world? A debate is beneficial when you care to understand and leave the interaction with more knowledge, rather than feeling angry because your views were not externally validated. 

If you just care about being right, forget about it. Don't demonize her for the views she has even though they are completely opposite to yours. They might seem ridiculous, but they serve a purpose -- to remind you of how you sometimes are ridiculous. Yeah, you! 

Put the focus right back on yourself first. Ask yourself: "how am I being ridiculous in my life?" If you care about self actualization, live by the principles of the field rather than trying to convince others how great it is. 

 

 

[AleksM]

Everybody has an opinion. But only a few have really good informed opinions. .

Debates are not worth getting into. It's a total waste of time.

[hinawashi]

When I was high school I was just as shallow-minded as everyone around me. Believe it or not I was the type of person who only cared about herself and my life was all about being validated by the peoples.

But let me answer your question of why, since nobody really gave a direct answer to it. The reason is kind of complicated but I'll make it short and sweet. They are shallow-minded because their experience of life is very limited. It's quite strange but the more limitations you have, the more you think you have... stuff, whether it's material belongings or knowledge in general. I'd love to explain it in detail but I think it's better to make a separate thread for it.

Since the main objective of self-actualization is to break free of our barriers, when we throw away our limitations we also throw away what we were clinging on to. Why people believe that ignorance is bliss is because they don't want to let go of their way of thinking, for within the limitations they set upon themselves that stuff is super valuable to them, and they simply cannot afford throwing it away. So in a sense that today's youth are shallow-minded because they want to stay that way, which nobody can ever convince them to get out of it.

So don't get frustrated. Instead, be thankful that you can use them as mirrors to reflect upon your own limitations. At the same time be more compassionate towards them, because everyone including you and me have gone through that shallow-minded stage in our lives. If people with higher consciousness didn't have the compassion to grant us the knowledge for us to become enlightened like them, we would forever wallow in the darkness blindfolded.

[Lorcan]

1 hour ago, hinawashi said:

So in a sense that today's youth are shallow-minded because they want to stay that way, which nobody can ever convince them to get out of it.

 

But I got out of it and plenty of others. (Although we are kind of a dime a dozen). So why have I managed to get out of the shallow-minded attitude to life and others have not? I am not saying I am super high conscious or trying to self glorify myself in anyway by saying I am not "shallow-minded". By no means am I master self-actualizer or even a mediocre one at that. I have a lot to learn. But at least I have heard, and accept that , yes in fact, there is a way of life out there that is more then just "born, school, degree, job, house, wife, kids, retirement, death and a few experiances of short term joy here and there"

But why I try to push self-help concepts to my friends, they just dont get it. They dont see it with the same gleam in their eyes as I and countless others on this forum do.

When I saw these videos (some of the first videos are saw from actulized.org) I was awe struck.

These videos, removed the dirt from the lense, (or at least a substaincial amount of it ) and I realized "Holy shit, life can be like this? Being a human being does not have to be a shallow existence?! Woah."

 

I showed these same video to my friend and it did not have the same effect.

Sometimes I feel like that shaman magic-man in the introduction of the book "The 4 agreements" . This man discovers this beauty he has just discovered thats always been there, but no-one understand him. And no-one even cares.....

So why did I go "HOLY SHIT" when I saw this video, and my friend went "Meh"

This saddens me, why cant people see it???? WHY cant they see the beauty. I do not know exactly what the beauty is amaze. But for some reason deep down, I feel like there is something there I did not know was even possibe, something so impossibly beautiful way of life to be experianced.

Edited August 8, 2017 by Lorcan

[Joseph Maynor]

Because it takes a life-time to mature.  I am 39 years old and would you believe that in the last year alone I have grown so much.  You will see that you will learn and grow your whole life-long.  You will gain some knowledge, then gain some perspective.   And this little engine will work itself your entire life.  I feel like I am the same person I was when I was 20, but I just have a lot more knowledge and experience.  You ever wonder why a lot of older people look so grounded and happy?  That's knowledge and experience.  I look back to how neurotic I was when I was 20 and younger.  I am much less neurotic now.  Don't worry about it.  You are likely heads above your peers.  Don't let that go to your head though.

Edited August 8, 2017 by Joseph Maynor

[Guest username]

Well, think about your particular path. Could you imagine what life was like if you didn't somehow by your own insight or through hearing about it, consider raising the quality of your consciousness to be a possibility?

Many very ideological people also tend to be very intelligent, but they don't see anything beyond the intellect or think that there is a way to access truth that does not involve thought. You could have asked her a question like, what is "bad" or "evil" or "shit" , but she most likely wouldn't have given such question much reflection since from the ego's perspective all of that tends to be fairly obvious. It's all assessed in terms of how it relates to the self, and rarely do you get anyone who can break out of the egocentric basis of viewing the world. 

Moral/ideological crusaders hide the fact that their views are rooted in egocentrism by externalizing issues and calling it a higher good, virtue, truth, etc. Advocating reflection rather than externalization of problems is often met with contempt or dismissal, often a very logical one, but one that is rooted in low-quality consciousness.  From that place, one could argue that spirituality is evil and a selfish coping mechanism for people who can handle the "obvious" truth of the world, or on the other hand, seen as arrogant for claiming that Absolute Truth is even accessible. These are totally reasonable views from a place of unconsciousness.

I think unconsciousness in other people, on occasion can be treated with clear rhetorical and contemplating/ looking at assumptions together, but it most cases it will fail and just trigger reactivity. I find it's much better to just be light-hearted and build other people up. You could look at it as a bhakti (heart-centered) way of raising consciousness in others rather than a jnana (wisdom-centered) way. 

[hinawashi]

@LorcanThe difference between you and the other young men and women is that you want to get out of it. Yes! It's that simple. You wanted to get out of the shallow-minded paradigm, but they didn't.

People don't self-actualize because they don't want to. People are not happy because they don't want to be. People are shallow because they fear the deep end.

If I'm not mistaken, Leo's videos have hundreds of thousands of views. But whether people want to change doesn't depend on Leo, it depends on them. If it's Leo's videos that made you change, good for you (not Leo, even though I give him credit for his efforts at shooting all these videos). Whether you want to change depends on you and you alone, because it could've been someone else who wiped off the dirt from your lens, and you'd still change without seeing any of Leo's videos. The most important thing is that desire to self-actualize. Remember this, as long as you have that desire inside you, you will keep going higher and higher.

[Shawn12]

Debates from my point of view are useful if you have the right intent in initiating them, not for ego gratification or its own sake. I find debating to be a good way to see counterpoints, points of view, and ideas that I may have not realized.

There are a great deal more distractions in life with media and communication technology than ever before, and while any journey of of self reflection upon truth is dependent on one's own initiative, it some times takes inspiration to spark it. With all the noise  those that shout loudest are easier to hear. 

I have a friend who can understand on from a rational point of view that the self and the mind's representation of reality are conceptualized distinctions that it creates separate from the  whole, he understands it as a philosophy but will not try to go deeper to experience it because he believes it would take too much effort. For some they never look deeper since they either tell themselves they will fail or they convince themselves its too much work, for others they never had the inspiration to try, and some just turn their frustration upon themselves and the world when they cannot fulfill the ego's desire.  What a person can do is try to inspire others but for them take the first steps forward is something only they can do.

[WaterfallMachine]

I used to feel frustrated with these types of people too but there's another perspective here.

Calling people close minded can be rather black and white. That makes you demonize this person as ignorant not just generally but in all ways. But recognize that everyone knows something that you don't. They had different problems in life to face. Different lessons. Different experiences. Different interests. Different people to meet. 

So when I'm forced to listen to a person like this, I think : Even if they're mostly wrong, is there truth to it? Even the smallest ones? There was a biography called My Lobotomy of a man with an emotionally abusive childhood who spent a large portion in life doing crimes, drugs and having lots of sex. His life was incredibly shallow — but he gave me one major lesson I treasured.

He was always being moved from one place to another without his control. And because he was never given a proper education, he didn't have much power to change his circumstances. So at least, he'd let loose and have fun. That was how he found control in his life. And while it's being used wrongly in letting things too loose — it was still a good lesson in moderation. I was stressed that day and took everything seriously — but after that, I relaxed and laughed it off.

Listening to people like this also allows you to know what ignorance is like. You don't fix ignorance like any other problem by forcing it on to someone but by taking time to understand what it's like without criticism. Sometimes people become more open when you become open to them. But if  they don't — at least try to learn from them if they won't learn from you. At least you'd know what to avoid.

Edited August 9, 2017 by WaterfallMachine