Someone here

The problem of not knowing and acting on the relative world

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This is a problem im facing ..at this point im clueless about how to go about the rest of my life ..practically speaking like studying and career-wise ..the main reason is my discovery  that i can't be certain of anything than this present moment.  How can i know that studying hard will make me get wealth and payoff ? That's just one example. 

I am 100% certain that I am conscious and i exist but it is not possible for me to know with 100% certainty that other humans.. non-human organisms..the Earth and the rest of the Universe actually exist. I perceive my body..animals.. the Earth and part of  the rest of the Universe. It is possible that what I perceive is either a dream or a hallucination or an illusion or a simulation and not objectively real. It is also possible that my perceived reality is actually real.. but I have no way of knowing this with 100% certainty. Given the fact that I cannot know with 100% certainty what is objectively real.. how can I know what is morally correct with 100% certainty?

Hoe can I know anything on the practical level if i don't know anything on the metaphysical/existential level ?


"life is not a problem to be solved ..its a mystery to be lived "

-Osho

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12 minutes ago, Someone here said:

Hoe can I know anything on the practical level if i don't know anything on the metaphysical/existential level ?

Action doesn't need thinking. You can think than act. One thought each time then acting.


"It is impossible for a man to learn what he thinks he already knows."

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Just now, James123 said:

Action doesn't need thinking. 

False . Whether you eat salad or McDonald's for dinner requires thought . Which assumes that there is someone here thinking and making decisions. 

My problem goes much deeper than this..if we assume that only this moment exist..how can I trust in long-term benefits of working hard on improving myself? 

Also I want to clarify what I mean by not knowing..I obviously know how to eat ..Wear..move ..work etc  ....bur I don't know what existence is .I don't know why I'm human being on earth. I just am here . This stuff just exists.  For apparently no reason. 


"life is not a problem to be solved ..its a mystery to be lived "

-Osho

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Just now, Someone here said:

False . Whether you eat salad or McDonald's for dinner requires thought . Which assumes that there is someone here thinking and making decisions. 

My problem goes much deeper than this..if we assume that only this moment exist..how can I trust in long-term benefits of working hard on improving myself? 

Also I want to clarify what I mean by not knowing..I obviously know how to eat ..Wear..move ..work etc  ....bur I don't know what existence is .I don't know why I'm human being on earth. I just am here . This stuff just exists.  For apparently no reason. 

Answer of this question is the purpose of creation is love. And if you still have attachments such as too much eating, smoking, drugs, porn etc... You will never reach love. Ones you are in love, you will have no more attachments then not knowing comes. What you say above is just solipsism. Because mind thinks what is not knowing. Meanwhile, when you genuinely now know, you have no idea what is me, you, god, creation, sentences, word, meaning etc...


"It is impossible for a man to learn what he thinks he already knows."

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@James123 yes I'm attached to these things (just not "drugs ").

What is the best way towards maturity..detachment..and unconditional love ?

I assume you agree with me on the not knowing part .


"life is not a problem to be solved ..its a mystery to be lived "

-Osho

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2 minutes ago, Someone here said:

@James123 yes I'm attached to these things (just not "drugs ").

What is the best way towards maturity..detachment..and unconditional love ?

I assume you agree with me on the not knowing part .

Oh sorry. İ did not mean as you, i mean common men problem in general. The best way of detachment is surrendering, retreats, slow by slow changing yourself. Basically, walking on the path. You will suffer a lot in the beginning. However, when you overcome, You will feel much less. Food, porn, smoking, woman, sex is just belongs to the matrix. You will have to let go all, which is your identity, isn't it?

I agree with not knowing, which is True Self of us. But it is way beyond even surrendering. You have to surrender till nothing left, even a piece of knowledge, such as sound of an "a" not even "Adam" and "Eve". 


"It is impossible for a man to learn what he thinks he already knows."

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3 minutes ago, James123 said:

Oh sorry. İ did not mean as you, i mean common men problem in general

No need to apologise. 

3 minutes ago, James123 said:

surrendering, retreats, slow by slow changing yourself. Basically, walking on the path. You will suffer a lot in the beginning. However, when you overcome

Im not at a point in my life that im capable of surrendering all my desires. I'm still young and fit .I Have a million and one dreams to achieve.  

Crawling up in a cave isn't jiving with me at this point .

6 minutes ago, James123 said:

Food, porn, smoking, woman, sex is just belongs to the matrix. You will have to let go all, which is your identity, isn't it?

😂 yes how do you know ? Yesterday I watched porn 12 hours .

Huge trap . Needs work ngl .but I'm a horny idiot . My dick has taken control over my brain .

7 minutes ago, James123 said:

I agree with not knowing, which is True Self of us. But it is way beyond even surrendering. You have to surrender till nothing left, even a piece of knowledge, such as sound of an "a" not even "Adam" and "Eve". 

Not understanding this part .


"life is not a problem to be solved ..its a mystery to be lived "

-Osho

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16 minutes ago, Someone here said:

Not understanding this part .

Not knowing as before birth.

16 minutes ago, Someone here said:

😂 yes how do you know ? Yesterday I watched porn 12 hours .

Huge trap . Needs work ngl .but I'm a horny idiot . My dick has taken control over my brain

Have sex brother, why do you even need to watch porn? I never get this.

18 minutes ago, Someone here said:

Im not at a point in my life that im capable of surrendering all my desires. I'm still young and fit .I Have a million and one dreams to achieve.  

Crawling up in a cave isn't jiving with me at this point .

You are still young, so fuck enlightenment. Lol.


"It is impossible for a man to learn what he thinks he already knows."

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Posted (edited)

Your problem is simple, and millions of men have had it, and those who have had balls have always known what the solution is. The problem is that you live in the shell, and therefore you don't know who you are or what you want. The solution is to expose yourself. travel for a year without money, go to a war, volunteer in a leper hospital, dedicate yourself to climbing 200 m walls without a rope, do things that bring out the real you that hides under mom's skirts, and that real you will not have doubts, you will always know what to do, because you will know who you are. For some that is not necessary because they just adopt the norm and their only objetive is to fit in the norm, but that is not your case. You want to walk alone, it's the best option but balls are required . Maybe it's not necessary to test yourself so hard, but I'd say it is necessary. If not the fear is always in control

Walking alone means looking the life directly, without filter, then you will see that you are absolutely exposed. That's fearful, and we as hive have been adopted a lot of filters, we are full of fear. This fear must be faced, the existence must be faced without any trick, be open to it. Then you will know exactly what to do , in fact it will be unavoidable, as a natural phenomena 

Edited by Breakingthewall

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11 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Your problem is simple, and millions of men have had it, and those who have had balls have always known what the solution is. The problem is that you live in the shell, and therefore you don't know who you are or what you want. The solution is to expose yourself. travel for a year without money, go to a war, volunteer in a leper hospital, dedicate yourself to climbing 200 m walls without a rope, do things that bring out the real you that hides under mom's skirts, and that real you will not have doubts, you will always know what to do, because you will know who you are. For some that is not necessary because they just adopt the norm and their only objetive is to fit in the norm, but that is not your case. You want to walk alone, it's the best option but balls are required 

Walking alone means looking the life directly, without filter, then you will see that you are absolutely exposed. That's fearful, and we as hive have been adopted a lot of filters, we are full of fear. This fear must be faced, the existence must be faced without any trick, be open to it. Then you will know exactly what to do 

Great Post thanks .

So your advice basically boils down to choosing Stoicism instead of hedonism? 


"life is not a problem to be solved ..its a mystery to be lived "

-Osho

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Socrates said he only knows that he knows nothing. Not sure how that relates to your question or life in general though. 

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Posted (edited)

9 minutes ago, Someone here said:

Great Post thanks .

So your advice basically boils down to choosing Stoicism instead of hedonism? 

There is no problem with hedonism at the time, but at other times what is necessary is direct, serious action, in search of your limits, your capacity for real suffering when facing human life. 

you have to build solidity, and for that you have to hit the hammer. If you don't do, you wont scape to suffering, and the game can take very dark faces. Every.year that pass brings you closer to a point where things are going to be defined. and you don't want the balance to tip towards darkness at that point.

This game is no joke, you either win or you are screwed to levels that can be horrible. Depression, isolation, darkness. life doesn't joke

Maybe that's not your case and I'm exaggerating, because people has a huge capacity of evasion, then can stand all life fooling themselves, but I'd say you are too smart for that 

Edited by Breakingthewall

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@Someone here everything is an illusion, that's the Truth. You are still kind of stuck in this thinking that if it's not real, then why do anything. I can sympathize with you on this as it is very cripling. Understand that you yourself are an illusion. Even the experience you have (which feels real) of the illusion is a part of the grand illusion. You have to ground yourself in this illusion and understand that it's very "real." If everything is an illusion, you have to learn how to navigate and thrive in it no matter the meaning behind it.

These insights can be quite cripling to people. As it was for myself too. But later you understand that it's stupid to just look at it like an illusion and do nothing. I mean you can, if you choose to, but there are way better things to create out of this illusion.🙏❤️


Mahadev

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Posted (edited)

2 hours ago, Someone here said:

How can I know anything on the practical level if i don't know anything on the metaphysical/existential level ?

These are actually distinct things.

You can know how a doorknob works without knowing anything metaphysical or existential or scientific about it. If this wasn't the case it would be impossible for children to survive to adulthood.

You are falling into the trap of getting overly philosophical about the practical stuff.

Quote

How can i know that studying hard will make me get wealth and payoff ? That's just one example. 

The practical world is never about 100% guaranteed absolute knowledge. It's always probabilistic, fallible, and uncertain. And then you just reason and act within that chaos.

1) There is no guarantee that studying hard will pay off.

2) But there are still best principles by which to operate in life. Hard work doesn't always pay off, but it's usually better than the alternative, so you act based on that. Your actions should align with the principles that tend to give the best results. And how do you know what those principle are? Well, again, you never know for sure, you just make your best intuitive guesses. And if your intuition proves wrong you analyze why it went wrong and you adjust it.

The overall trap you're falling into here is the expectation of or demand for 100% certainty. Life just doesn't work like that. Embrace the hairy chaos of it.

And as far as morality goes, certainty doesn't even apply there because morality is a human-invented domain. Killing someone is not "certainly wrong". It's null. It's whatever meaning you give it and whatever consequences come about (which can vary wildly) depending on who you killed and why.

Edited by Leo Gura

You are God. You are Truth. You are Love. You are Infinity.

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5 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

The overall trap you're falling into is the expectation or demand for 100% certainty. Life just doesn't work based off that.

The thing is to have the absolute certainly that you have to be absolutely serious in one direction , as you are I'd say. Then, you could be wrong in many things, it's sure that it will happen, but you will always walking, deepening, evolving. 

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Posted (edited)

6 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

the absolute certainly that you have to be absolutely serious in one direction , as you are I'd say.

I don't know what that is alluding to, but I would disagree that you have to be absolutely any thing or any way.

Your actions and your mind are not limited to any particular way of being -- other than whatever restrictions you invent for yourself.

Edited by Leo Gura

You are God. You are Truth. You are Love. You are Infinity.

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13 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I don't know what that is alluding to, but I would disagree that you have to be absolutely any thing or any way.

Your actions and your mind are not limited to any particular way of being -- other than whatever restrictions you invent for yourself.

I allude to you as an example because you are a person we know something about, because being a partly public character. Seems that you are someone who advances, that is the only thing that a human being should know as true, either you advance, or you sink. It is the nature of life physically and mentally. Human life is a path, this is not something relative but absolute.

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1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

You are falling into the trap of getting overly philosophical about the practical stuff.

251 traps


Feral Buddhist Critter 

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19 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

These are actually distinct things.

You can know how a doorknob works without knowing anything metaphysical or existential or scientific about it. If this wasn't the case it would be impossible for children to survive to adulthood.

You are falling into the trap of getting overly philosophical about the practical stuff.

The practical world is never about 100% guaranteed absolute knowledge. It's always probabilistic, fallible, and uncertain. And then you just reason and act within that chaos.

1) There is no guarantee that studying hard will pay off.

2) But there are still best principles by which to operate in life. Hard work doesn't always pay off, but it's usually better than the alternative, so you act based on that. Your actions should align with the principles that tend to give the best results. And how do you know what those principle are? Well, again, you never know for sure, you just make your best intuitive guesses. And if your intuition proves wrong you analyze why it went wrong and you adjust it.

The overall trap you're falling into here is the expectation of or demand for 100% certainty. Life just doesn't work like that. Embrace the hairy chaos of it.

And as far as morality goes, certainty doesn't even apply there because morality is a human-invented domain. Killing someone is not "certainly wrong". It's null. It's whatever meaning you give it and whatever consequences come about (which can vary wildly) depending on who you killed and why.

Great answer.  That's my Leo 😂. 

Fantastic episode by the way . Also you seem to smile more and you seem happy and in a good mood . Grateful for you brother .

I have only one point .. what you  are saying  is likr if I'm playing chess I must take risks because I can't be certain of all  the possible movements of my opponent..so is life like  that? I'm rather shocked and disappointed..that life is not certain makes me uncomfortable. 

Another question is How much evidence does it take for you to say that you know something? (e.g. "I know the sky is blue" or "I know the sky is not blue.") ..is direct experience always accurate?  I mean we can be deceived by a mirage in the desert  .that's one example .


"life is not a problem to be solved ..its a mystery to be lived "

-Osho

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Why is there a problem with not knowing? Not knowing to me is probably one of the most joyful states I can be in. I see pure potential and opportunities to learn and do the things I love in not knowing.


I would ask you why you are creating this problem for yourself and work on getting to the bottom of the misalignment with the Tao. 

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