Nivsch

Israeli Society - 75% for same sex marriage or LGBTQ civil union, top Vegan country

230 posts in this topic

2 hours ago, Nivsch said:

Last year, the liberal protests against Bibi's plan to reform the courte were huge, with tens and sometimes hundreds of thousands of people every saturday.

Do you think Bibi will end up in jail after all of this ends?

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Posted (edited)

@Vrubel 1. I am talking about childreen here. 5 year olds. They did not kill anyone, nor hide behind anyone and are too young to even understand what is going on. They also did not elect Hamas. Yet you seem too cold about their deaths while crying about Ukranian kids dying (although 30 times less in scale). You basically went on a rant about how bad Hamas is yet my comment was about childreen, not their parents.

2. Of course Ukranians will be way more chill. They were not raised on a prison neither did they suffer under Russia. Ukraine has been an independent state since 1991 and was treated fairly well under USSR by Russia after Stalin's death (Nikita for example was Ukranian). Most young Ukranians have no reason to hate Russians per say. Meanwhile Gazans have been killed in the thousands in the last 10 years alone (over 2000 in 2014 alone). You seem to fail to understand the significance between your brother being bombed in his house. Considering Gazans have huge families even 1000 civilian deaths (like in 2014) affect tens of thousands of people.  I am starting to see Ukranians support bombing of Russian cities and even were happy about the terrorist attacks in Moscow so the hatred is starting to boil up now. However it is still a 2 year war, this is a 75 year old conflict. Hamas is basically the far right wing armed forces of Gaza which due to the conditions has grown a lot. Ukraine due to them living fairly comfortable lives and no real reason to hate Russia hardcore (until 2022) did not have a hardcore right wing military. However, I have read that they had this Azof Brigate composed of right wing fascists which did war crimes in the past. They are mini Hamas in a way but less cruel and smaller.

3. How exactly will Hamas fight in the open field? Unlike Ukraine, Gaza is super super small, they have no air defense nor tanks etc. Ukraine has all the West support, millions of men and tons of empty land for a normal warfare. I dont like tunnel warfare but given Gaza size and density you cannot really fight there "like men" as you say.

4. How do you know how many were cheering on October 7th? How do you know whether those people were aware of Hamas atrocities? You probably just saw some clips on Tik Tok and now say "they are all happy about it". I have also seen countless clips of Israelis cheering on about Gaza being bombed even before this attack so it goes both ways. And considering Israelis are rich boys that never lost anyone from war (given the low number of civilain deaths in general historically) then how do you justify that?

Edited by Karmadhi

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Posted (edited)

2 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

1. I am talking about childreen here. 5 year olds. They did not kill anyone, nor hide behind anyone and are too young to even understand what is going on. They also did not elect Hamas. Yet you seem too cold about their deaths while crying about Ukranian kids dying (although 30 times less in scale). You basically went on a rant about how bad Hamas is yet my comment was about childreen, not their parents.

Yes, there are truly innocent people in Gaza who just wanted peace or are too young to understand the situation. I can definitely respect and feel for an individual Palestinian but not for a random one because I don't know whether he rejoiced at seeing young abused girls paraded on pickup trucks. 

Civilians famously joined in on the attack and held hostages at their homes. Even UN workers!

 

2 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

2. Of course Ukranians will be way more chill. They were not raised on a prison neither did they suffer under Russia. Ukraine has been an independent state since 1991 and was treated fairly well under USSR by Russia after Stalin's death (Nikita for example was Ukranian). Most young Ukranians have no reason to hate Russians per say. Meanwhile Gazans have been killed in the thousands in the last 10 years alone (over 2000 in 2014 alone). You seem to fail to understand the significance between your brother being bombed in his house. Considering Gazans have huge families even 1000 civilian deaths (like in 2014) affect tens of thousands of people.  I am starting to see Ukranians support bombing of Russian cities and even were happy about the terrorist attacks in Moscow so the hatred is starting to boil up now. However it is still a 2 year war, this is a 75 year old conflict. Hamas is basically the far right wing armed forces of Gaza which due to the conditions has grown a lot. Ukraine due to them living fairly comfortable lives and no real reason to hate Russia hardcore (until 2022) did not have a hardcore right wing military. However, I have read that they had this Azof Brigate composed of right wing fascists which did war crimes in the past. They are mini Hamas in a way but less cruel and smaller.

Ukraine is an impoverished place, Russians took Crimea from them. And historically the Holomodor was perpetrated by Stalin to feed Moscow over Ukraine. 

Azov and Hamas are oceans apart. Sorry, I am not going to be petty about any right-wing views they might hold. Azov is bravely fighting on the front lines demonstrating great virtue. Hamas is the antithesis of virtue. 

Even as war breeds hate most Ukrainians are sensible people and don't hold random Russians responsible. 

2 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

3. How exactly will Hamas fight in the open field? Unlike Ukraine, Gaza is super super small, they have no air defense nor tanks etc. Ukraine has all the West support, millions of men and tons of empty land for a normal warfare. I dont like tunnel warfare but given Gaza size and density you cannot really fight there "like men" as you say.

 

Palestinians have no choice but not to fight and instead to pursue their agenda in a pragmatic and healthy way. They have enough sovereignty and eminence to do that. Economicly they can benefit themselves greatly in being next to Israel. Their freedom of movement will also increase greatly without terrorism. A strong and wise Palestinian leader is to everybody's benefit. They can definitely get to some resolution with a center-left Israeli government. 

 

2 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

4. How do you know how many were cheering on October 7th? How do you know whether those people were aware of Hamas atrocities? You probably just saw some clips on Tik Tok and now say "they are all happy about it". I have also seen countless clips of Israelis cheering on about Gaza being bombed even before this attack so it goes both ways. And considering Israelis are rich boys that never lost anyone from war (given the low number of civilain deaths in general historically) then how do you justify that?

Gazans are not naive. They knew for what they were cheering. I of course don't know the exact number or percentage that was cheerful on that day. But from what I understand it was a substantial part. The streets were full of cheering people. And these were just random people that happened to be there. Aljazeera was also definitely rejoicing and full of glee on that day.  

Israelis cheering is a whole different dimension, they are not cheering for raped young women or killed innocent people. Israelis are patriotic and will support the troops who defend them. Israelis have no choice but to be strong and ready for war in contrast to Palestinians who as I mentioned have no choice but to be non-violent. That's just the uncompromisable dynamic at play. The law of nature if you will. Once you have to survive in a remote forest you can't argue or negotiate with nature, you bend to its will. 'Nature' being the dynamic of survival in the Middle East. This dynamic is more harsh to the Israelis than to the Palestinians. A large part of why they committed 7/10 is because they knew they wouldn't get genocided for it. Any standard Israel upholds is in their eyes just another weakness for them to exploit. 

 

 

Edited by Vrubel

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, Vrubel said:

but not for a random one because I don't know whether he rejoiced at seeing young abused girls paraded on pickup trucks. 

Civilians famously joined in on the attack and held hostages at their homes. Even UN workers!

Why dont you try to understand them instead of just virtue signaling? 

1 hour ago, Vrubel said:

Ukraine is an impoverished place, Russians took Crimea from them. And historically the Holomodor was perpetrated by Stalin to feed Moscow over Ukraine. 

Holomodor was done 80 years ago, things move on. When the Nazis invaded USSR, Holomodor was still fresh and you know what Ukranians did? They openly sided with the Nazis and massacred Russians and even close to 100.000 Poles. They also actively took place in the Holocaust and organized massive polgroms agaisnt Jews. Because it was thought that Holomodor was caused by Jewish Soviets. So when they actually went through real shit they became animals. I am not picking on them per say here. Everyone would become one under the certain conditions. It is just that modern Ukraine is an independent country that did not have any hardships like Gaza did so ofc they will act far more civilized than Hamas. In Gaza most families have people that were killed by Israel. In Ukraine it was not the case until 2022. Crimea did not impact most Ukranians. And Ukraine is poor because firstly it is corrupt as fuck and run by oligarchs. Their politicans suck. They got themselves to blame for their poverty, nobody else. 30 years of independence is enough to get your shit together. Even after 2014 revolution they still remained very corrupt. Still are. Abusing money etc. 

 

1 hour ago, Vrubel said:

Azov and Hamas are oceans apart

Obviously. Why should they hate Russia that much (before 2022).

1 hour ago, Vrubel said:

Even as war breeds hate most Ukrainians are sensible people and don't hold random Russians responsible.

I have read countelss comments say that they view this as Russian people war and not just Putin war. They say Russians support the war at large and Russia as a country should pay. And from what I have seen many Russians do support the war indeed so they are not totally wrong here. But they are not more virtous that Palestinians when they actually go through shit. It is human nature. I am not making a case of Ukraine here per say. Just brough it up since only there you seem to have human compassion towards childreen. Any population would have done what Gazans did if they went through similar stuff. It is just that the world is so comfortable (including Ukraine) that that need is never brough up. Study history and see how harsh revolts and uprisings were to understand the human capacity for violence if misstreated enough.

 

Edited by Karmadhi

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, Vrubel said:

But from what I understand it was a substantial part. The streets were full of cheering people.

I spoke with a friend about why he celebrated on that attack. He is Arab pro Palestine. He celebrated because he said "they finally took their land back, Israeli thiefs fled like cowards and they killed soldiers". When I asked him about civilians dead he said "they did not target them. Muslims dont kill civilians".

That is how they see that attack. Whether you agree with that perception or not, another story.

If you see it that way of course you would celebrate. Killing soldiers of the enemy and taking land back is a valid course for celebration. In most of their minds that is all that happened. Therefore, the massive celebrations even in Europe and USA.

To be honest if they just killed 1200 soliders and no civilians I would not condemn  it (but not celebrate because I do not see Israel as my enemy, just devils). 

But also 800 civilians in a war is normal. It always happens. It is when the death toll gets in the tens of thousands that you can say things are getting bad. Especially for such a small country.

If Hamas killed 30.000 Israeli civilians people would be looking at this war differently.

Edited by Karmadhi

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18 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

Why dont you try to understand them instead of just virtue signaling? 

I am explaining to you why they are locked out from my compassion. It's their stupidity and depraved behavior. Everything in the world is technically understandable but there is a difference between understandable and understandable. 

I mean... I know some low-brow simple people that are capable of some cringe shit but holy fuck... cheering for such a thing seems to me like such a transgression against God and a layer-cake of brainlessness.

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8 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

I am explaining to you why they are locked out from my compassion. It's their stupidity and depraved behavior. Everything in the world is technically understandable but there is a difference between understandable and understandable. 

I mean... I know some low-brow simple people that are capable of some cringe shit but holy fuck... cheering for such a thing seems to me like such a transgression against God and a layer-cake of brainlessness.

There is 1 thing I honestly cannot understand here.

Israel kills THOUSANDS of Gazans through the years and when Gazans celebrate their suffering in their strike back it is seen as anti christ behavior in your eyes.

But when Israel celebrates Gazans suffering, from their own strike back, it is seen as ok.

I dont get the logic here.

To help you, I wrote a comment from the POV of a October 7th Supporter that I personally know so you can gain insight into how they think if it seems too alien.

"I spoke with a friend about why he celebrated on that attack. He is Arab pro Palestine. He celebrated because he said "they finally took their land back, Israeli thiefs fled like cowards and they killed soldiers". When I asked him about civilians dead he said "they did not target them. Muslims dont kill civilians".

That is how they see that attack. Whether you agree with that perception or not, another story.

If you see it that way of course you would celebrate. Killing soldiers of the enemy and taking land back is a valid course for celebration. In most of their minds that is all that happened. Therefore, the massive celebrations even in Europe and USA.

To be honest if they just killed 1200 soliders and no civilians I would not condemn  it (but not celebrate because I do not see Israel as my enemy, just devils)".

So basically denial. Same as many Israelis about what is going on there. Same mechanics.

 

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Posted (edited)

@Karmadhi Hostages are the no1 sufferers in this war with a huge gap above everyone else.

Not to underestimate anyone's else suffering, but this isn't fair to overlook them.

Edited by Nivsch

🇮🇱💛 Israel finished 5th at Eurovision and 2nd(!) in public vote with 'Hurricane' talks on oct7th. Israel's performance Here

🌻 Stage Yellow emerges when Green starts to have tolerance and respect to the variety of views within HIMSELF.

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4 hours ago, Nivsch said:

@Karmadhi Hostages are the no1 sufferers in this war with a huge gap above everyone else.

Not to underestimate anyone's else suffering, but this isn't fair to overlook them.

All the Gaza civilians are equal to the suffering of the hostages. Israel refuses to negotiate their release. 

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Posted (edited)

https://www.tiktok.com/@sy.hus/video/7351026964825672992

I dont know about you guys but this does not seem like an advanced liberal society to me.

More like a fascist state that bullies kids because they can.

I wonder if most Israelis are like this when they join the IDF.

Smacking kids around, very honorable for a soldier to do...

And to think this is in the West Bank.

Before you go "It is necessary for the security to prevent terrorist attacks blla blla". It is not the fact that the kid got checked. It is the whole manner how he got checked, the treatment he got. Everyone gets checked in the airport for example at the security place but I do not recall people getting smacked around while doing so. It is downright child abuse.

That is the issue here.

Edited by Karmadhi

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Posted (edited)

@Karmadhi I saw this video couple of days ago. Yes garbage soldiers in it.

A service in this tough west bank area will, I think, maybe unavoidably accompanied by spiral devolvement and many times in an unhealthy way, but there have to be a way to change many things there to the better.

Tel Aviv port where I was an hour ago.

Screenshot_20240412-175538_Gallery.jpg

Edited by Nivsch

🇮🇱💛 Israel finished 5th at Eurovision and 2nd(!) in public vote with 'Hurricane' talks on oct7th. Israel's performance Here

🌻 Stage Yellow emerges when Green starts to have tolerance and respect to the variety of views within HIMSELF.

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Posted (edited)

3 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

I dont know about you guys but this does not seem like an advanced liberal society to me.

When a tribe of people are under violent attack, they regress and no longer act like advanced liberals.

That's how terorism works.

Edited by Leo Gura

You are God. You are Truth. You are Love. You are Infinity.

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Posted (edited)

48 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

When a tribe of people are under violent attack, they regress and no longer act like advanced liberals.

The idea that Israel is under constant attack from all sides is a lie, spread by Israel itself. It appears to be the case that even the oct 7 attacks were let to happen by Israel than some tribals lords overpowering the most advanced miliary in the world with a superior intelligence unit. 

Moreover, you have to look at the general sentiment by Israeli population to killing civilians. Most of them support the killing of Palestine in overwhelming majority. 

All this screams mad sus.

Edited by Bobby_2021

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@Bobby_2021 OK. The morality is big time on your side. You can relax now.


🇮🇱💛 Israel finished 5th at Eurovision and 2nd(!) in public vote with 'Hurricane' talks on oct7th. Israel's performance Here

🌻 Stage Yellow emerges when Green starts to have tolerance and respect to the variety of views within HIMSELF.

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3 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

@Bobby_2021 OK. The morality is big time on your side. You can relax now.

Asking in general, do you have any criticisms of Israel?

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Posted (edited)

@Bobby_2021 See what I wrote the previous page.

Edited by Nivsch

🇮🇱💛 Israel finished 5th at Eurovision and 2nd(!) in public vote with 'Hurricane' talks on oct7th. Israel's performance Here

🌻 Stage Yellow emerges when Green starts to have tolerance and respect to the variety of views within HIMSELF.

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Posted (edited)

4 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

@Bobby_2021 See what I wrote 1-3 pages backward.

Fair. I will read them sometime.

All I am saying is that something's not adding up. This is becoming more and more clear once I am digging into the details.

Edited by Bobby_2021

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6 minutes ago, Bobby_2021 said:

Fair. I will read them sometime.

All I am saying is that something's not adding up. This is becoming more and more clear once I am digging into the details.

Diversity 🧕🤵‍♂️👳👩‍🎤👩‍🍳👩🏻‍🦱👩🏿‍🦱


🇮🇱💛 Israel finished 5th at Eurovision and 2nd(!) in public vote with 'Hurricane' talks on oct7th. Israel's performance Here

🌻 Stage Yellow emerges when Green starts to have tolerance and respect to the variety of views within HIMSELF.

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Everyone is talking past each other here and ignoring the actual points being made. 

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38 minutes ago, yetineti said:

Everyone is talking past each other here and ignoring the actual points being made. 

Brother, the actual points haven't yet been made yet. The whole issue us a cease pool of lies, bias and plain denial to the degree it questions the common sense of people who are watching this unfold.  By everyone, I include me as well.

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